April 23, 2002 Chat Log

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<Steve H> Hey Rick :-) better timing today
<Rick Zanotti> No surgery this week... :)
[Tue Apr 23 18:13:28 CDT 2002] Kathy Adams: Currently using a LMS with authorware
<Steve H> Ahhh - just a cold beer :-)
<Amy Blankenship> OK, this is the official start of the chat, even though our "sme's" have not made it in yet, I think we have enough to get started
[Tue Apr 23 18:13:58 CDT 2002] Jerome has no profile.
<Steve H> so - questions, questions?
<Amy Blankenship> Kathy, glad to see you. I am just researching
<Steve H> Hey JD :D
<Kathy Adams> Hi all
<Amy Blankenship> Those using LMS's...what is the hardest thing you had to get past?
<Steve H> Hi Kathy
<Sharon Brown> I can be sort of a surrogate SME till Carol Fallon gets here. I work with her.
<Steve H> Cool
<Amy Blankenship> Cool :-D
<Steve H> hardest part for me was convincing Docent 4.7 to listen to AW
<Amy Blankenship> Doesn't Mark Schupp work with you guys?
<Sharon Brown> Yes he does.
<Amy Blankenship> I did not think to ask him too, but he would have been a good one
<Everett Renno> I just posted to the list this afternoon, does anyone have any experience with connecting to SABA?
<Steve H> nope
<Lee Gorsky> Steve, what did you have to do?
<Kathy Adams> Anybody using Pathlore as their LMS?
<Tian> I have some experience to make AW6 work with Pathlore in the last few months. It was hard.
<Sharon Brown> Mark's currently tearing his hair out working on the next release of WBT Manager - not a pretty sight.
<Steve H> I had to go buy a chicken :-0
<Tony Fortunato> not me, how about oracle?
<Amy Blankenship> Send me some. I'll cast a "good energy" spell LOL
<Steve H> I had no idea where to start - I had an LMS and no docs - (long story, don't ask)
<Rick Zanotti> We use Pathlore quite a bit Kathy<Jerome> We had some problems with SABA and dropped them after not being able to connect with AW
<Steve H> so I had to take an existing almost working piece and pull it apart.
<Sharon Brown> SABA seems to be a big problem child for a lot of people.
<Amy Blankenship> Oracle would be a back end that you would put at the other side of the LMS. But most LMS's don't offer oracle support
[Tue Apr 23 18:17:04 CDT 2002] Carol Fallon: I own and operate a small online learning company that produced the first LMS to be certified against the AICC's Web specification. I also develop content mainly using Authorware.
<Kathy Adams> Rick, had any problems?
<Tony Fortunato> Yes, I also had problems with the examples
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Carol
<Amy Blankenship> welcome<Mike Bray> hi carol.
<Everett Renno> Jerome, what problems or success did you have?
<Carol Fallon> Hi guys!
<Sharon Brown> WBT Manager supports Oracle.
<Jerome> Problems with SABA (the hosted version)
<Rick Zanotti> Kathy, no, it worked OK. It took a little ASP coding for some stuff
<Amy Blankenship> Cool...I did not realize that
<Lee Gorsky> Anyone use Intralearn?
<Steve H> The biggest issue I had was finding information - there must be loads of folk using AW and LMS solutions, but they are not hanging around the places I do chatting about the things
<Kathy Adams> Rick, we are having trouble with transfer of data from OLS to CLS
<Tony Fortunato> Sharon, to a certain extent, the problem was with the javascript
<Amy Blankenship> There was quite a bit about LMS's at EuroTAAC, but it was hard getting a good view with all the different sessions
<Carol Fallon> There's lots of information but it's fragmented and hard to distill
<Amy Blankenship> What do you mean about OLS and CLS for those of us who don't know
<Jerome> it seems to me whenever you talk to vendors they tell you no problem but it always become an "enhancement" and don't have much to show for it
<Tony Fortunato> thanks Amy
<Steve H> erm - one of the few complaints we got - too much good stuff to choose from
<Kathy Adams> the OLS is the online learning side and the CLS is the classroom tracking side
<Carol Fallon> I have spent quite a bit of time helping people to work with other vendors LMSs
<Tian> We had a lot issues integrate Authorware with Pathlore. It is difficult to get support from Pathlore. They want sell its consulting service which our company won't use.
<Amy Blankenship> Thanks, Kathy
<Carol Fallon> My client had the same issue
<Amy Blankenship> I seem to be hearing that about a lot of vendors
<Everett Renno> SABA tech support offered an Authorware template and middleware (java servlet) to handle communication but we hesitant due to the price tag.
<Steve H> This seems to be the biggest issue Jerome - the vendors say it is easy - make it sound like you just put your file on the server and it works. In practice you need some voodoo and a lot of skill
<Tony Fortunato> SABA sounds good
<Lee Gorsky> Everett, what was the price tag?
<Everett Renno> 10K US
<Tony Fortunato> I wish we had a AW template
<Tony Fortunato> ouch!
<Carol Fallon> Pathlore wanted to charge her to help her make her lessons communicate
<Amy Blankenship> I guess that depends on how many users you are talking about
<Steve H> Any templated or example AW files I have seen are like spaghetti - no offense to anyone here how might be offering them - but they are almost impossible to unpick
<Tony Fortunato> I agree with you Steve
<Sharon Brown> I follow the AICC and SCORM forums, and SABA gets more complaints than any other LMS. I often wonder how they got it certified.
<Tian> We finally figured it out with some help from Pathlore tech support.
<Everett Renno> Steve, another reason why we hesitated.
<Carol Fallon> Tony, which LMS are you trying to link with (I was late arriving)
<Steve H> if you want to offer a sample file that works with LMS make it a sample that can be understood!!!
<Tony Fortunato> Oracle Ilearning
<Kathy Adams> Pathlore is also trying to charge us extra to fix what they taught us to do
<Tony Fortunato> I had to work it out myself
<Tony Fortunato> they didn't know anything about authorware
<Tony Fortunato> but, after saying that , aw is neither here nor there
<Tony Fortunato> its all javascript
<Carol Fallon> Steve, I'd be grateful for any feedback you have on how to make my sample more useable
<Steve H> what do you mean Tony?
<Kathy Adams> Tony, the last time they said we needed a consultant I said it wouldn't be a problem as long as they know more than me, so far hasn't happened
<Tony Fortunato> well
<Tony Fortunato> in the aicc specs, you call the API
<Everett Renno> Carol, what sample?
<Tony Fortunato> page 264 appendix B
<Kathy Adams> not currently, they have us using javascript coding
<Steve H> OK, Carol. I would need to sit down and spend time with it. I got about 4 or 5 samples at that point ... you know how it is, you end up being unproductive as you tear your hair out :-o Keep in touch and I will give your sample a closer look
<Tian> Pathlore consultant will charge $1500 per day and will not tell us how many days they will need to resolve the issue.
<Carol Fallon> Everett I have a number of samples for AICC and SCORM
<Steve H> Sheesh
<Kathy Adams> Tony what book are you referring to?
<Sharon Brown> S***. That's ridiculous, Tian.
<Mike Bray> That's it, I'm becoming a Pathlore consultant! ;-)
<Rick Zanotti> We used to sell Pathlore and know all their problems.. Call us off chat if you like.
<Steve H> I have found my new vocation ;-)
<Mike Bray> wasn't Pathlore originally developed by the old Solice (sp?) folks?
<Amy Blankenship> I thought you already had a vacation this year
<Rick Zanotti> No, Phoenix for Mainframes
<Tony Fortunato> CMI guidelines for interoperability
<Kathy Adams> Rick I will call you to talk. I've been attempting to resolve the problem for months
<Rick Zanotti> OK Kathy
<Kathy Adams> ah.. thanks
<Carol Fallon> Unfortunately the LMS vendors see this as an opportunity to make services revenue - they don't want to make it easy - present company excepted of course
<Tian> Rick, we can talk about that later on.
<Steve H> :D Of course
<Rick Zanotti> In Pathlore's case they simply had no clue...
<Tian> We did get some help from Macromedia, but they don't have the experience for specific issues with Pathlore.
<Lee Gorsky> Has anyone heard of Intralearn?
<Rick Zanotti> Looked at them at a tradeshow
<Amy Blankenship> Just a little note here...this will be going up on the net, so let's not step over the line and say something that might get the website owner in legal troubles, ok :)
<Steve H> this is a big issue - the whole point of all the standards - AICC etc. - is that courses are supposed to be portable - so for OUR purposes, using the LMS should be transparent. It seems to me that each LMS has different requirements to shoehorn AW into it
<Carol Fallon> Tony, what issue did you have with the API?
<Lee Gorsky> I'm only interested in what people think of the AICC compliance.
<Rick Zanotti> Amy, no clue about what we were doing... :)
<Tony Fortunato> on page 264 of appendix B, reference was made to an API object
<Tony Fortunato> I tried this and discovered we could only access the functions, not the object
<Amy Blankenship> Nobody did anything yet, and we will likely keep it that way :-)
<Harry Pastore> I don't see the connection between portability and an LMS having proprietary setups
<Carol Fallon> Steve, in general they don't
<Steve H> hey we can edit the log if we have to ...
<Tony Fortunato> Yes, Steve, it seems that way
<Tian> That may be a good idea -- editing the log before put it on the web
<Amy Blankenship> Harry...the connection is you should be able to take course A into Lms B and it should work if it was working with another LMS
<Carol Fallon> Tony, the API object should be supplied by the LMS
<Steve H> Maybe not, Carol, but I guess my gripe is that finding out information about how to make the durned things work is really difficult - seems to me folk here see the same problem. And some vendors sound to be taking advantage of that
[Tue Apr 23 18:32:26 CDT 2002] A has no profile.
<Tony Fortunato> hmmm....yes
<Apurva Lawale> Hi
<Carol Fallon> Steve, I completely agree!
<Tony Fortunato> hello A
<Apurva Lawale> how are you all ?
<Sharon Brown> Tony, if you can access the API functions and get them to work for you, that should be all that's needed.
<Apurva Lawale> Oh sorry got lazy there . Apurva here.
<Harry Pastore> SCORM states the object should have certain hooks. How those hooks integrate into a given LMS is the vendors business
<Rick Zanotti> Hi "A" where's "B" :)
<Steve H> Hi A -- we are deep in LMS land ;-)
<Tony Fortunato> but the point I am getting at is lack of standardization
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Apurva
<Everett Renno> Carol, I'm interested in communicating with SABA (AICC). I've been able to launch courses but no results are being recorded in SABA. I used the AICC sample course and the HACP-LAN testbed (AW6). Do you have any sample courses freely available?
<Apurva Lawale> just woke up from sleep.
[Tue Apr 23 18:33:17 CDT 2002] Scott Young: syoung@relate.com
<Mike Bray> Hi Apurva. Nice nickname ;-)
<Apurva Lawale> Hi Mike
<Apurva Lawale> Hi Amy
<Carol Fallon> Everett - I just replied to your Aware message - email me back off-list
<Steve H> OK, simple question. Where are there clear docs about using the API?
<Tony Fortunato> www.AICC.org I think
<Tony Fortunato> now that is a guess
<Apurva Lawale> yep the docs are there
<Steve H> yeah those docs are SO clear. NOT
<Tony Fortunato> yes!
<Carol Fallon> The AICC CMI spec is at www.aicc.org
<Apurva Lawale> I think there is a big manual with a thousand over pages and some example files
<Apurva Lawale> manual
<Steve H> Yeah, but the question was where are there clear docs, not where are the specs
<Sharon Brown> The spec documents at www.AICC.org and the SCORM ones at www.adlnet.org both explain it, although it still isn't necessarily easy to understand. Maybe looking at both sets will help clarify a little.
<Tian> Too much to read the AICC specs. Some of those testbed stuff may be helpful.
<Amy Blankenship> Careful, you will wind up compiling another FAQ :-D
<Steve H> I don't think I am in the minority when I say I don't want to have to digest 1000 pages of specifications when all I need is a manual
<Tony Fortunato> Carol, I have worked it out, its just that not all LMS's are the same
<Carol Fallon> Steve, you are not in the minority!
<Steve H> :D
<Mike Bray> I've only dealt with the AICC specs in so far as was necessary to help some folks with specific problems, but I found that most sections of the spec included fairly helpful examples. I pretty much skipped the mumbo-jumbo and landed in the examples. Much more clear.
<Carol Fallon> I think everyone needs to put more pressure on the LMS vendors for support
<Tony Fortunato> I agree
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, but it seems they hold all the cards
<Carol Fallon> They charge beaucoup bucks for these systems
<Apurva Lawale> we don't have an LMS with us. We create a small LMS / Database as required.
<Kathy Adams> especially after you've already purchased
<Amy Blankenship> most of us don't have enough information to know what to ask for
<Tian> Totally agree with you, Carol
<Tony Fortunato> what about making your own LMS?
<Steve H> So is it safe to say there are no docs other than the monolithic specifications? Those specs are great if you are doing your job, Carol, and Sharon, but not for the developer that just needs to know the 5 or 10 or whatever commands that gets him up and running
<Apurva Lawale> but the docs at aicc.org seem quite clear
<Harry Pastore> Bruce Van Horn built one and posted it
<Sharon Brown> Clear is in the eyes of the beholder, Apurva.
<Amy Blankenship> But Apu, you are a nerd...you understand these things ;-)
<Carol Fallon> Well Steve if you were working with WBT Manager......
<Tony Fortunato> LOL
<Amy Blankenship> Bruce's site has been down for a long time
<Apurva Lawale> yep sorry Barbara. I understand
<Carol Fallon> Anyone who emails me off list can have a look at mine and Sharon's documentation and samples
<Rick Zanotti> Andrew Chemey has developed a great KO for LMS integration with AW
<Apurva Lawale> nerd ? me no.
<Apurva Lawale> :)
<Harry Pastore> I got it directly from him
[Tue Apr 23 18:39:17 CDT 2002] R L has no profile.
<Tony Fortunato> hello Ron
<Steve H> I did not choose the LMS Carol .. I would jump at WBT manager if I was making the choice - if only so I could get great tech support ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Harry, if you don't have any place to post it, ask Bruce if he'd allow me to host it
<Sharon Brown> Have you put Andrew's KO into service yet, Rick?
<Everett Renno> Is Andrew making it available or should we contact him?
<Harry Pastore> Sure. I'll get right on it.
[Tue Apr 23 18:39:55 CDT 2002] Rob has no profile.
<Amy Blankenship> Hi Rob
<Carol Fallon> Steve - you say the nicest things!
<Amy Blankenship> Thanks :-)
<Rick Zanotti> No Sharon, just evaluating it for integration into our product
<Steve H> ;-)
<Rob> hi
<Steve H> Hi rob
<Tian> I would like get a copy of the KO for LMS
<Sharon Brown> I've been curious about it. I downloaded the trial version, but haven't had time to work with it.
[Tue Apr 23 18:40:56 CDT 2002] Rob has no profile.
<Steve H> When you say the KO is great - does that mean it is usable and open, or blind science?
<Rob> oops I closed the browser
<Steve H> :-) It does not like you doing that - and don't use the browser to browse in the background either :-o
<Amy Blankenship> It is kind of like the Web Player like that
<Steve H> Did you look at the KO Rick?
<Rick Zanotti> Blind science, but it looked good
<Harry Pastore> Well, it's been a slice folks. I found out what the weather in Chicago was. Thanks.
<Amy Blankenship> Hey, no problem. Thank Gorsky :-)
<Apurva Lawale> if anybody wants to work on a LMS project let me know. We could create one for the AW community.
<Carol Fallon> I also have an AW sample that works with Pathlore
<Apurva Lawale> anybody interested ?
<Mike Bray> oops, folks...I have to get into a meeting. Everyone play nice and eat all your peas ;-) Thanks, Amy (et al) I hope to catch the next chat.
<Amy Blankenship> Actually, that was discussed last chat
<Rick Zanotti> I think Carol has already done that, Apurva...
<Mike Bray> (I'll get back to you on that, A ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> an open source LMS optimized for AW
<Apurva Lawale> bye Mike. have a nice day
<Tian> Can I take a look of your sample, Carol?
<Apurva Lawale> yep open source LMS optimized for AW
<Carol Fallon> email me off-chat cfallon@ielearning.com
<Tony Fortunato> can I take a look at it too carol?
<Scott Young> Andrew's KO auto detects if the LMS is using an AICC or SCORM interface and sets up the communications accordingly. On the developers side you only have do deal with setting the user configurable variables that are passed to the LMS. The KO walks you through the process.
<Amy Blankenship> That sounds cool
<Tian> Thanks, I will. Carol.
<Carol Fallon> Sure Tony
<Steve H> so it is blind science then ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> does it write the Javascript to the page for HACP?
[Tue Apr 23 18:45:49 CDT 2002] Mark Schupp: Head of Development - Integrity eLearning
<Scott Young> Andrew is out of the country for about a month. When he returns we can get more of the internal details from him.
<Carol Fallon> Hi Mark!
<Rick Zanotti> He's in India
<Sharon Brown> Steve, much as I hate "blindness," it's not so bad if the KO actually works.
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, he was going to try to come, but in India the internet is not as reliable as here
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Mark
<Tony Fortunato> thanks Carol
<Amy Blankenship> welcome!
 Hi, I meant to get in on this earlier but I had the wrong time zone
<Rick Zanotti> Seemed to work - he blinded us with science...
<Steve H> Sure - but there is always a need to tweak, and some of us have this urgent need to look under the hood, whether it works or noe :-)
<Amy Blankenship> That's ok Mark
<Sharon Brown> And I didn't think Mark would have time, so I didn't yell across the room at him. :-(
<Rick Zanotti> I think Andrew is negotiable
<Amy Blankenship> I don't like KO's and Extensions and such for just that reason. I don't learn anything from using them
<Steve H> so we can buy him for a tinny?
<Tony Fortunato> what is a tinny?
<Amy Blankenship> For those of us not born in the UK, that means...?
<Rick Zanotti> But your life is Oh so much more relaxing... :)
<Tony Fortunato> I think I know what it is.....
<Steve H> it is an Australian term - a tiny is a tin of beer ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> If I liked relaxing, would we be having a chat LOL
<Tony Fortunato> oh....
<Tony Fortunato> slightly different here in NZ
<Tony Fortunato> ;-)
<Rick Zanotti> LOL
<Steve H> So are you saying he is not that cheap?
<Carol Fallon> Can I take a straw poll of which LMSs you guys have worked with?
<Tian> Sure .
<Amy Blankenship> I am still in the survey stage
<Everett Renno> SABA is the first LMS I've attempted to connect to. I think it may cure me of it.
<Rick Zanotti> Pathlore, LearningSpace, Xtention, Manager's Edge
<Steve H> Docent, LearningSpace 4, Blackboard ('cept it was more a document management system
<Sharon Brown> WBT Manager (obvious, but just to have it on record)
<Tian> Pathlore OLS
<Rick Zanotti> LearnFrame
<Tony Fortunato> Oracle iLearning
<Tony Fortunato> has anyone ever come across iLearning?
<Carol Fallon> Did any of you have good experiences with the vendors for support?
<Tony Fortunato> has anyone heard of ILearning?
<Tony Fortunato> yes
<Carol Fallon> I though they canned it!
<Rick Zanotti> They all SUCKED big time!!!
<Amy Blankenship> :-D
<Tony Fortunato> Carol, really?
<Jerome> how about the "free" LMS -- xtension? any good?
<Sharon Brown> I haven't, Tony.
<Tony Fortunato> oh.....
<Tian> I agree, They only want to sell their stuff.
<Amy Blankenship> So you had the ORECK treatment
<Rick Zanotti> Support was awful and non-existent in most cases
<Steve H> I am always the contractor/developer - the victim to the manager's choice, I never deal with support
<Jerome> I know we have oracle for our financials and HR and it s**ks
<Carol Fallon> Now don't pull any punches Rick!
[Tue Apr 23 18:52:34 CDT 2002] Mark Henry has no profile.
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Mark
<Amy Blankenship> Welcome
 Hello everyone!
<Carol Fallon> Hi Mark!
<Rick Zanotti> Sorry, I'm a little shy...
<Everett Renno> Rick, how was your experience with Xtention (is that the one distributed for free)?
 Sorry I'm late, did I miss anything?
<Amy Blankenship> It's all logged
<Carol Fallon> Rick we really should get together - we-re practically neighbors
<Tian> Hi, Mark.
<Steve H> yeah - gossip. I guess we should talk about LMSs now ;-)
<Rick Zanotti> Haven't done too much with Xtention yet. We know the owner personally and it's an evolving product
 LOL
<Carol Fallon> and a free product??!!
<Tony Fortunato> *sigh* it sux being on the other side of the world.......
<Rick Zanotti> I will call you tomorrow Carol. I agree!!!
<Amy Blankenship> You're not, we are
<Tony Fortunato> LOL
<Steve H> No I am
<Steve H> er
<Steve H> em
<Rick Zanotti> Xtention has a clever marketing gimmick by giving it away for free and charging for integration. It may work. Not sure yet.
<Amy Blankenship> Carol, I think it would be useful if LMS vendors would put SOME kind of pricing info on their sites
<Carol Fallon> I'll look forward to your call Rick
<Amy Blankenship> it is really hard to go to your boss with info you've printed out, and say "I don't even have a ballpark idea of how much this will cost"
<Carol Fallon> Amy - I agree
<Steve H> I think they don't want to scare folk off - all but Carols are ******* expensive
<Rick Zanotti> Most LMS vendors are AFRAID to put their pricing up because it is so exorbitant
 Amy, that's actually more of a marketing/sales strategy.
 Agreed.
<Sharon Brown> I agree, Amy. I always figure if they can't tell me what it costs, I can't afford it.
<Amy Blankenship> I pretty much think the same thing
<Carol Fallon> Amy you could always buy the BS Hall report
<Rick Zanotti> BS Hall??? LOL
<Amy Blankenship> I won't pick up the phone because once you call, then they try to start pressuring you "So how many do you want to buy?"
<Carol Fallon> Oops sorry I meant Brandon Hall
 Several of the prime sales "strategies" that are in use recommend NOT disclosing price or licensing until you get a client interested in a product.
 Personally, I don't agree with the strategy.
<Sharon Brown> Mark H. is probably right, though. It's partly so you *have* to call them and let their salespeople work on you.
<Tony Fortunato> QUESTION: How do you secure your content, and maintain communication to your LMS?
<Rick Zanotti> Ultimately, it comes down to price/value.
 Tony - could you expand on that? What do you consider :secure"?
<Steve H> nor do I - tell me what IO want to know, or I look elsewhere
<Tony Fortunato> how do you ensure that people that log into to LMS get your content, and no one else?
<Steve H> that is the LMS job
<Rick Zanotti> The LMSs are secure
 Many LMS systems allow Admins to register students before hand in order to have access to the course.
<Tony Fortunato> problem:
<Tony Fortunato> we want our content to be local
<Tony Fortunato> so download time is minimized
<Steve H> no problem
<Tony Fortunato> ILearning is in the states
<Tony Fortunato> miles away......
<Steve H> The AU file allows you to specify a server - but you need to install a web server on local machine
<Tony Fortunato> any ideas?
<Sharon Brown> Is it set up to be only hosted on their site, then, Tony?
<Carol Fallon> Tony - are you using a hosted LMS?
 Tony, the simplest way if you are using AW against an AICC LMS is to include a "key" string in the core_vendor field and look for the key in your piece. Then exit if it is not found.
<Steve H> Tony I do exactly what you describe with Docent
<Tony Fortunato> Sharon -no
<Tony Fortunato> not yet anyway
<Tony Fortunato> Carol-yes, ILearning is in the states
 Mark S. - good idea. I hadn't thought of using that field in that way.
[Tue Apr 23 19:01:00 CDT 2002] Tianzhu: Instructional designer/developer from Washington DC
<Tony Fortunato> but at the moment, I have specified AW pieces on our unsecured server
 Welcome Tianzu!
<Steve H> But Tony, since the student can only get access to the course through the LMS -- is there an issue?
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Tianzu
<Tony Fortunato> Mark-thanks!
<Tianzhu> I was disconnected from MSN just now. I ma back now,
 Steve, the issue is that a student may be able to jump directly to the lesson's url
<Tony Fortunato> Steve-at the moment, anyone can look at the piece if they know the URL
<Amy Blankenship> But don't you just give the LMS the URL? The LMS has no way to lock students away from that URL
<Tianzhu> Have to use a different nickname. Same as Tian
<Tony Fortunato> Amy-yes
 I'm getting more requests for Section 508 Compliancy than LMS connectivity.
<Rick Zanotti> Mark, I thought the Feds mandated Scorm, or not yet?
<Tony Fortunato> LOL
<Sharon Brown> Really? I thought the gov't folks were all over SCORM.
<Rick Zanotti> 508 is definitely a big one now
 I think it depends on the agency. Many don't have LMS systems (yet) so they don't see the need to have the course fitted for future compatibility.
<Amy Blankenship> I don't think SCORM is law
<Amy Blankenship> 508, now that is definitely law
<Steve H> Rick the stuff I have seen has been people *thinking* they need to be compliant to standards, then deciding that they only need to track three or four things, so that half-million £££ LMS was really expensive
<Amy Blankenship> hm...thinking future chat
<Steve H> 508?
<Rick Zanotti> Stop charging outrageous rates for managing courses (SCORM)
 Amy - if you're thinking 508 - I agree whole heartedly, very important topic.
<Tony Fortunato> LOL
<Kathy Adams> I agree 508 would be another good topic
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, I will definitely put it on the list
<Rick Zanotti> Gov and commercial are embracing 508 because it's part of ADA
<Steve H> I don't care while I stay in the UK ;-)
<Apurva Lawale> and how about Localization for a future chat ?
<Tianzhu> I think only the Feds are interested to 508. Not many private companies do.
<Jerome> gotta go. thanks for the info. is the chat available later?
<Jerome> to download a copy?
<Amy Blankenship> I will be posting it on the "More" page
<Steve H> yes
<Amy Blankenship> once the archives get more than a couple of months, I'll give them their own page
<Rick Zanotti> I've got a meeting now... :( See you next chat. Bye everyone!
<Amy Blankenship> Good point, Apu
<Amy Blankenship> have a good one, Rick
<Carol Fallon> There is a good presentation on the ADL site that discusses when you do and don't need SCORM
<Tianzhu> Is the previous chat log available on your site, Amy?
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, click the "MORE" button just under the logo
<Tianzhu> Thanks,
<Carol Fallon> Steve, 508 I likely to be replicated all over the world - certainly in the UK
<Carol Fallon> Sorry my typing sucks
<Steve H> from what I see, the majority do not need it - they just think they have to be 'compliant' or get left behind. The standards are running way ahead of the needs of the majority
<Amy Blankenship> How bout this...I WOULD like to talk about future chats, but let's leave that discussion until after 7:30
<Lee Gorsky> I have to sign off. Thanks for the info. Talk to you all later.
<Steve H> Sure it will Carol :-) I am just observing how behind the UK is
<Amy Blankenship> Thanks for coming, Lee
<Tony Fortunato> see ya gorsky
<Steve H> OK by me
<Sharon Brown> Steve, I can see that as an argument for not retrofitting stuff, but it's short-sighted not to build new things to the specs.
<Amy Blankenship> I guess the thing that gets me, is, how do you know an LMS will be a good one until you're already fighting it

<Apurva Lawale> maybe there could be a page listing all LMS and then ask people who used it to comment and put their strong and weak points according to their experience
<Sharon Brown> Mark, I get the feeling we're about the only company that offers a trial version.
<Steve H> Oh sure, but the point I was making is that I doubt the majority will actually need to get into the standards. Most just want proof of training and a score *if* there was any kind of assessment
<Amy Blankenship> but most LMS's have all kinds of setup you have to do, I would think
<Amy Blankenship> even if they do have a trial version, who wants to set up 6 databases
<Apurva Lawale> then you know what you would be fighting when you buy it (at least something will be known)
<Amy Blankenship> That's a good idea Apu
<Everett Renno> I've got to put dinner on...thanks everyone.
<Carol Fallon> Steve, yes they do if the LMS uses the standards as the basis for their communication
 or you can send the usual "every feature under the sun" questionnaire
<Tianzhu> In my case, I don't have a choice. The company already have Pathlore. I have to find an Authoring tool to work with it. It has been using Phoenix from Pathlore.
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one Everett
<Steve H> Yeah- there is no practical way to test 4 or 5 LMS systems since the setup takes ages before you can put any content on it - then realistically you need to soak test it - then you need to test it with hundreds/thousands of users plus loads of courses ...
<Tony Fortunato> QUESTION: when initializing communication to the LMS, do you keep the session open, update variables as you go and then close the session once? Or do you initialize, get/put then close every time you want to communicate to the LMS?
<Sharon Brown> There is some useful LMS and other tool review stuff at www.cetis.ac.uk
 You can only close the session once
<Tony Fortunato> can't you do it a number of times?
 you may send multiple updates (cmiflush in AW)
<Tony Fortunato> ok...
<Tony Fortunato> ahhh...right
<Steve H> But taking a step back from even that Carol - from it looks like many can do without an LMS. Certainly a commercial one. Like Apu already said - it is relatively easy to build your own LMS **to your own specs**
 I don't recommend multiple updates because of the server load.
<Tony Fortunato> hmmmm....do it in one go you reckon?
<Carol Fallon> Steve - sure if you have the expertise and resources - not all companies do
<Amy Blankenship> My boss is talking about doing that
<Amy Blankenship> Steve, I think the problem is that if you build an LMS willy-nilly, it will work great for your own courses
 Steve - I haven't done it before, but I certainly wouldn't want to have to build a fully AICC compliant LMS
<Apurva Lawale> LMS are basically databases in layman terms
 usually we do and initialize and then a finish at the end. you can set the internal CMI vars in AW as many times as you want in between
<Steve H> I said **to your own specs** the full AICC compliant LMS is like using a rocket ship to go to the corner shop for many]
<Amy Blankenship> but when you need to buy something from someone else or use something put out by another arm of the gov't (for instance if you work for the gov't), then you have a problem
<Tony Fortunato> Ok, I think I understand....
<Apurva Lawale> where I work we don't have a full blown LMS system. never needed it. But sometimes we do require certain features so then we make a sort of customized database/LMS
 Tianzu - are you still having problems hooking AW up to the Pathlore/Phoenix LMS?
<Steve H> Yes. But you are all missing the point. For most folk, they only need to support their own courses. They only need to track that Fred did the course and got a score of 75. Period. All the other stuff is just not required. Sure governments and large corporations will need more, but I am not talking about them
<Tianzhu> Mark- We make it work, but in a weird way. Not exactly what we expected.
<Sharon Brown> What kind of weird way?
<Amy Blankenship> Like it or not, most AWARE list people work for the gov't or large corporations
<Carol Fallon> Steve - you have a valid point. The problem is that so few buyers really examine their requirements at the get go and then they end up with an inappropriate solution
<Steve H> exactly
<Carol Fallon> They get suckered in by the marketing hype
<Amy Blankenship> and by the fact that everyone on the public forums like the list is concerned about LMS's
<Amy Blankenship> but they are kind of mysterious, so it is hard to know if you DON'T need it
<Tianzhu> The Exit (quit) button worked weird when you confirm exiting the program. It start a download dialog box
<Steve H> I have seen what 2 specific large corporations are using their LMS systems for in the UK. You would laugh
<Amy Blankenship> Not us. We don't have sense of humor
<Apurva Lawale> got to go now. Thanks Amy for providing a nice chat facility.
 the reason that we built our system initially was that we met many content developers that the *not* want to build yet-another management system
<Carol Fallon> Actually I wouldn't be surprised
 Can anyone share "horror" stories about specific LMS systems?
<Tony Fortunato> bye Apurva
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one Apu
<Amy Blankenship> thanks for dropping by
<Amy Blankenship> Tianzhu: is it trying to download a file with the extension ".dll"? I wonder if it is trying to download the back end component?
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: we already did that part
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
<Apurva Lawale> bye 4 now.
<Tony Fortunato> love your site btw
<Steve H> Yes - Carol they pay out for the LMS because somebody told them they needed it and they believed them.
<Kathy Adams> Gotta run, thanks for the chat :)
<Carol Fallon> I am sure the same issue applies with ERP systems
<Steve H> Yup.
 Hello? Is anyone there?
 Yes
<Tony Fortunato> Hello mark henry
<Tianzhu> Amy I have no doubt that people are using them - I am using LMSs too. But whether they are really needed is another story. Anyway I'll get off my soapbox ;-)
<Tony Fortunato> please Steve, the soapbox suits you...
<Tony Fortunato> ;-)
<Steve H> :-)
<Steve H> I'm sure folk realize by now I don't usually follow the same street others are on :-)
<Carol Fallon> Hey Steve not everyone has your level of expertise
<Sharon Brown> I think part of the trick is to find an LMS that is scaleable in price and capacity. Most sound like they try to do everything for everybody, and as a result they do most of it poorly.
<Steve H> Yeah, but I usually end up fighting the "Emperor has no clothes" corner ;-)
[Tue Apr 23 19:25:49 CDT 2002] yoda: wise am I, yes, for I know that I know not
 What?
<Carol Fallon> There is still tremendous ignorance about many aspects of eLearning
<Steve H> Yey Yoda the wizened one
<Tony Fortunato> questions or answers have you?
<Steve H> there is tremendous ignorance in most things, to be truthful. There are minorities in all fields trying to fix that...
 Sharon - so are you looking for an LMS that scales in features, as well as # of users?
<Carol Fallon> Hey Mark she's one of us!
<Amy Blankenship> All right...we have someone who knows that he knows not
<Steve H> that is the beauty of the INM solution.
<Sharon Brown> Actually, Mark, I'm sort of selling one. ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> shhh
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
 Oops. ;-)
 Yeah, she better not be looking for another LMS
 LOL
<yoda> A poster on AWARE recently inquired about having problems with Saba LMS - will it work in 3-tier environment with no middleware?
<Tony Fortunato> got a url Sharon?
<Sharon Brown> www.ielearning.com, Tony.
<Tony Fortunato> (wise is he...)
<Amy Blankenship> Is there such a thing as a 3-tier environment with no middle-ware?
<Carol Fallon> But thanks for being so quick of the mark (hum) there Mark H!
 yoda, need more details
<Steve H> I laughed when I first saw Docent and Blackboard. They come with all these whistles and bells **that can certainly have their uses**, but get switched off - chat, whiteboarding, student-to-student email etc. etc. The companies I have seen using them spent over half a million £££ to immediately disable over half the features they paid for
 Yoda - that depends on your definition of middleware, it does.
<Tony Fortunato> yes
<Tony Fortunato> I agree Steve
<Sharon Brown> It seems to me that most of that stuff doesn't need tight integration with the LMS in the first place.
<Tony Fortunato> Oracle iLearning has a million features
<Carol Fallon> I heard that Blackboard are in trouble
<Tony Fortunato> we want to turn off 750,000 of them
<Tony Fortunato> and we can't!
 Funny thing - I just built a CBT that included a whiteboard and a chat room, then the client asked me to turn the features off for the final release because it was too distracting.
<Steve H> Yup. Sharon you know where I am coming from here ;-)
<yoda> I am working on DHTML Saba LMS connectivity, and know that applet/servelet or plugin is required for 3-tier LMS to HTML communication
<Steve H> what did you hear Carol?
<Carol Fallon> they are in financial trouble
<Steve H> Ouch
<Carol Fallon> But it was just a rumor of course
<Steve H> they have a lot of clients
<Tony Fortunato> yoda oh wise one, where can I find out about this 3-teir stuff?
<Steve H> and very expensive licensing
 Yoda, following the AICC/SCORM spec means that the LMS is a "black-box" that launches lessons 2, 3, or n-tier architecture has no meaning
<Amy Blankenship> Doesn't HACP protocol require middle-ware?
 You might want to build a content package that uses 3-tier architecture but you will still communicate with HACP using HTML post command and use Javascript to talk to the SCORM API.
<yoda> Ah, perhaps, but that is not what Saba says. HTML/Javascript cannot parse plain text return string from LMS in system where LMS/content/user all on different server (3 tier, no?)
 Amy, not from a content developer's standpoint. your development tool must be able to send an HTTP POST request.
<Steve H> Ahhhhh - this brings to mind a question. Carol. Do I remember correctly that you suggested at EuroTAAC that the CMI feature set of Authorware could become obsolete?
<Amy Blankenship> and that is what AW does, when it uses the CMI functions, right?
 If you lay out the architecture of the entire system then you will probably see that it can be called 3-tier.
 Amy, Yes
<Carol Fallon> Did I say that?
<Steve H> You said different words :-)
<Carol Fallon> Well HACP isn't in SCORM
<Steve H> basically that the javascript communication system would prevail and CMI would not - or something
<Carol Fallon> I think the AICC will maintain the specification
 Wouldn't they have to - for backward compatibility?
<Amy Blankenship> and the stuff tacked on to the end of the FileName is how AW knows how to communicate with the LMS, right?
<Carol Fallon> but SCORM is expected to become more important than AICC
<Sharon Brown> Yoda, if you're using HTML/Javascript content and HACP, the SABA folks are right. That's the biggest weakness of HACP, and a good reason to use AW.
 If people completely abandon HACP for the API then the CMI functions will have no purpose.
<Steve H> Hmmm - but if we want to make our courses go anywhere ... what do we choose as our default communication? Not CMI I guess
<yoda> Perhaps I should have mentioned AICC Level 1 - not SCORM - Saba's SCORM capability is highly suspect and not yet officially released, think I.
<Carol Fallon> Yes the Aviation industry has millions of dollars invested in HACP-based WBT
 I think that's a big part of the problem - so many different "standards" fighting for the same market.
<Steve H> yes.
<Carol Fallon> Steve - it depends on how portable you want your content to be
<Tianzhu> Nice to chat to you all, folks. I have to leave now. See you again on AWARE.
 And portable to whom.
<Amy Blankenship> I wonder if the AW engineers can make the CMI functions work with the Javascript API somehow
 Bye
<Carol Fallon> I would back the API for the long haul<Tony Fortunato> bye Tianzhu
<Tianzhu> bye1
 In the future the AICC will require both the API and HACP for certification so you may see both being maintained
<Carol Fallon> Bye Mark
<Steve H> well, forgetting that *I* don't care for a moment ;-) Let's assume I have a project that will go to dozens of clients with who knows what LMS or LCMS systems
<yoda> "Ah, yes, AW, if only I could have done it in AW," muses I.
<Carol Fallon> Even the AICC are saying so
<Carol Fallon> Steve - isn't it past your bedtime?
<Steve H> AICC are saying API is the way to go>
<Steve H> ?
<Sharon Brown> I know what you mean, Yoda.
<Carol Fallon> That is their candid advice
<Steve H> nope - bedtime is usually about an hour or so from now :D
<yoda> Ask must I: AW / AICC L1 / HACP/ Saba LMS / 3-tier / no middleware, yes ?
<Steve H> "Candid" Hmmmm. OK, API it is
<Sharon Brown> The API still seems somehow "fragile" to me.
 In what way?
<Carol Fallon> Yes Sharon - that's the downside
<Steve H> as are all the systems so far as I can tell
 yoda, your question is still not clear
<Carol Fallon> Steve - I think the CMI functions/HACP are pretty solid
<yoda> which part is unclear?
 You need some software that is capable of POSTing, that *could* be considered middleware
 are you asking if 3-rd party products are needed to use HACP
<Sharon Brown> Mark, I think Yoda is asking if AW can directly do 2-way communication with HACP (as opposed to the 1-way you get with HTML/Javascript content).
 yoda - I think the question is "what do you consider middleware"? There are several definitions floating around, so it's hard to say one-way or the other.
<yoda> AW can post with PostURL or ReadURL, but the return HACP data in plain text - how do you handle that? yoda wonders.
 the string returned by posturl is parsed using string functions
 the cmi functions in AW do this automatically
[Tue Apr 23 19:43:29 CDT 2002] joe: joe
[Tue Apr 23 19:43:45 CDT 2002] Joe Ganci: joe
<Steve H> Hey Joe - get yer watch fixed ;-)
<Carol Fallon> Hey Joe!
 if you want to use plain HTML/Javascript then you need an intermediary component to send the post and return the data (that is what the API adapter does in SCORM)
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Joe, glad you could make it :-)
<Joe Ganci> Nope, just got back from a trip
 yoda - if you have AW6, there's a couple good examples of connecting to an AICC LMS using the CMI functions on the CD.
<Amy Blankenship> how was your trip?
<Joe Ganci> very good, very enlightening, thanks
 Hi Joe.
<Joe Ganci> what's the topic?
<Steve H> They might be good examples, but the code is a bear
<Joe Ganci> hi, mark
<Steve H> LMS
<Joe Ganci> ah, ok
 Steve - once you strip all the interface stuff off of it, and get rid of the flotsam, there's some good stuff there.
pardon me for being quiet...am wrestling the log
<yoda> Ah, it becomes slowly clear - so, AW + CMI + Saba LMS + 3-tier = yes?
<Carol Fallon> Amy is he as cute as The Rock?
<Steve H> I guess :-) I am impatient. OK, I was not in the best frame of mind when trying to get some sense out of the code
 I used the example to build all of 123..CBT's connectivity to WBT Manager in just a few hours.
 It could be considered 3-tier
<Steve H> Carol - you have too much spare time if you watch that stuff
<Carol Fallon> Steve the samples aren't too bad except for a couple of errors
<Steve H> I guess if I had an LMS that was not too bad too it would help
<Sharon Brown> Trust me, Carol has *no* free time.
<Steve H> Docent 4.7 has 'issues' with Authorware
<Steve H> She has plenty of time to get tipsy in Edinburgh ;-)
<Carol Fallon> I have 3 daughters so I hear about this stuff
 Pretty much every LMS I've run into has had "issues" with connecting to any authoring system that wasn't built by the LMS vendor.
<Carol Fallon> Steve!
 any LMS that passes the AICC certification test should have no issues with AW (AW is used in the test).
<Carol Fallon> Moi!
<Steve H> What? I could have said you were drunk ;-)
<Steve H> I do not think Docent 4.7 was ever certified
<Steve H> I have to use what the client has
<yoda> AW6 I have not. AW5.2 is best I can do, but someday... hopes yoda.
[Tue Apr 23 19:48:23 CDT 2002] joe Ganci: www.authorware.com
 Steve, have you tried contacting the company that makes Docent and asking them for connection code?
<joe Ganci> guess what I just found out? if you close the browser window, the chat window closes too, just because it's a child. ;-)
<joe Ganci> what is the question at hand?
 See, when the parent leaves the child just goes wild!
 child
<Carol Fallon> Steve - but that wouldn't have been true
<Steve H> Well, it's like this. Docent charge a mint for tech support. So my client paid for cheaper third-party support. Which means they email some guy who has no clue, and he emails Docent in the US, then about a week later a non-answer appears. There appears to be no direct route to Docent without shelling out a bomb
<Sharon Brown> AW 5.2 can be used pretty well, Yoda. You just have to use an undocumented function to handle the ExitAU. CMIFinishExitAU().
<joe Ganci> I mean, what is the question we're discussing at the moment?
<yoda> Saba will give Javascript code, applet for a consulting fee (not sure about AW code/samples) and if you're a Saba partner - what a racket, thinks yoda.
<Carol Fallon> Leo Kause has worked with Docent
<Amy Blankenship> Joe, it is pretty much up in the air
<Amy Blankenship> several different threads
<joe Ganci> ok, I'll listen and jump in whenever, at least until I'm called to dinner ;-)
 Try contacting the vendor and tell them you're considering using their LMS with Authorware, then ask for a demo and sample code before you consider buying it.
<yoda> yoda stop now.
<Amy Blankenship> OK, have a good one, oh short bald one
<Tony Fortunato> bye yoda
<Steve H> Leo has been very helpful. As has an ex colleague of mine with whom I went through setting up a Docent server. But that did not fix Docent problems. Client is due to upgrade to Docent 6 any time ...
 Will the upgrade fix the problem, or cause more?
<Carol Fallon> Ok I see 4.7 is old version
<Amy Blankenship> Sad that question has to be asked
<yoda> yoda not gone - just not talk.
<Tony Fortunato> oops
 Somebody has to ask the hard questions. ;-)
<Steve H> Yes I expect so. As I understand it 4.8 fixed the problem
<Steve H> Of course here is no telling what workarounds are in place that will require repairing :-o
<Steve H> LOL
<Carol Fallon> Amy, can we line him up for a 508 chat?
<Steve H> oops - lost internetr connection
<Amy Blankenship> Absolutely
 Count me in on that one as well. You might also want to get Ron Lubensky involved as well.
<Amy Blankenship> Does everyone want to keep talking about LMS's, or do we want to talk about future chats?
<Carol Fallon> Mark S, Sharon - isn't it time you went home?
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, of course...you can't talk about 508 without inviting Ron
<yoda> yoda is open to any discussion
<Sharon Brown> I just called home to let Wes know I'd be late, Carol. I'm having fun, so no sweat.
 If no one has any more tech questions: the freeway beckons
<Steve H> I am happy to keep going
<Amy Blankenship> Woohooo...the live you lead Mark
<Tony Fortunato> can we ask other questions?
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Sure
<Steve H> shoot
<Carol Fallon> Mark I bet it will be bad tonight with Metro rail problem
<Tony Fortunato> thinking.......
<Amy Blankenship> I am thinking about holding an emergency chat this weekend
 As opposed to when???
 Topic?
<Amy Blankenship> I am writing a database driven storyboarding system
<Carol Fallon> ok point taken - take care
 Sounds fun.
<Amy Blankenship> I want to brainstorm on what kinds of data should be collected
 bye
<Amy Blankenship> and how the database should be designed
<Sharon Brown> Sounds interesting.
 Oohhhh, ALL kinds.
<Tony Fortunato> can I ask a question not about LMS issues?
<Steve H> Ahhh - so you want us to do your work for free? ;-)
<Carol Fallon> PLEASE!
<Tony Fortunato> pease
 I'm working that route now with a small focus group of ISDs.
<Amy Blankenship> sure, Tony
<Tony Fortunato> please
<Tony Fortunato> ok
 I could [probably] share some info.
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, and with the recent discussion on the list, this is something a lot of people are working on
<Steve H> Carol, for you ... ;-) maybe
<Amy Blankenship> It does not have to be totally public
<Amy Blankenship> I don't have to publish the log, for instance
<Tony Fortunato> I have still not received any response about getting an AW piece to wait until programs/plugins have been installed. Is there a way of getting the progress of a download?
<Carol Fallon> Steve - I was talking to Tony
 The problem with an on-line storyboarding tool is finding the right place to "stop" adding data collecting and crunching stuff.
<Steve H> LOL
<Amy Blankenship> oops, Mark could you repeat that
<Amy Blankenship> I just lost everything in my window
<Sharon Brown> Go ahead and ask anything you want, Tony. We may not know the answers, of course.
<Steve H> I have it
<Tony Fortunato> progress bar for download of aw plugin, flash plugin, tts engine
<Tony Fortunato> agent
 Amy - the problem with an n-line storyboarding tool is determining where you want to STOP collecting info, not where to start. (I think)
<Tony Fortunato> know what I mean?
 Tony - go to the downloads section of my site
 www.rlinteractive.com
<Steve H> Amy is putting together a tutorial for something like that I think Tony
<Carol Fallon> Excuse me for minute please
<Tony Fortunato> Mark-rampant lion?
[Tue Apr 23 20:01:46 CDT 2002] Mark Henry: www.rlinteractive.com
 Whoops, got kicked out again.
 Where was I? Oh yeah.
<Amy Blankenship> Well, we want to try for an engine that can run any course
 Tony - look for the loader.zip file on my site. It does what you're looking for.
<Sharon Brown> That's fine, Mark. You conveniently posted your URL for Tony. ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> so I think we want to try to capture as much detail as possible
<Tony Fortunato> thanks
 Amy - are you looking for a system that just gathers info, or that builds a "finished" course as well?
<Steve H> quick request. Can somebody please copy/paste the current contents of the chat window into notepad or Word? Amy and I have had a technical hitch and we lost some of the log
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: the tutorial I am working on is how to display the information about the loading before the webplayer loads
<Steve H> Ah
<Amy Blankenship> Marks's is for after
<Steve H> oops
<Steve H> ok
<Amy Blankenship> The problem is that the ActiveX control does not give percentages on its status
<Amy Blankenship> it just tells you if it is ready or not
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: Right now I am working on the gathering
<Steve H> so you cannot test or display actual progress
<Tony Fortunato> bummer.....
 So, we're talking about the status of the plugin starting, or is it the download and installation of the plugin, or both?
<Amy Blankenship> but since there will be a preview mode, the engine will mostly spring from its head full grown, so to speak
<Amy Blankenship> I think most people want something to show before the AX Control is completely downloaded
<Steve H> nice thought :-op
<Tony Fortunato> Amy-yes
<yoda> It seems you need to write an ActiveX to download an ActiveX to get progress - like Flash.
<Amy Blankenship> In Flash the plugin has already downloaded and instantiated before you can see anything
<Steve H> sounds like a job for Chris, or Stefan to fix ;-)
<yoda> Yes, that is why I suggested using an ActiveX to download another ActiveX - don't know if that's actually possible or practical though.
 It is, if the first AX already ships with the browser - so it doesn't have to be downloaded itself.
<Amy Blankenship> Unless the put out an upgrade and you have it set to download the latest control LOL
 The real question is, why is this stuff so darned difficult?
<Steve H> er - blind science makes folk money?
<Tony Fortunato> you better believe it Steve
<Tony Fortunato> the IT industry is built on it
<Tony Fortunato> IMHO of course
<Sharon Brown> Probably, Steve. But then again, when you think about how complex the programming behind some of this stuff is, I often wonder how it works as well as it does.
<Amy Blankenship> I want to know why everything seems to be 5x harder in NS
<Tony Fortunato> LOL
 I've actually found some things EASIER in NS than IE.
<Amy Blankenship> getting the plugin installed?
<Sharon Brown> Probably because NS hasn't had the budget MS has had.
<yoda> XUL sure is :o)
<Tony Fortunato> but how many billions do you need?
<Amy Blankenship> When you are giving it away for free? obviously a lot
<Sharon Brown> I think NS got in trouble between the time MS made browsers free and AOL bought them.
[Tue Apr 23 20:15:40 CDT 2002] Steve Howard: Intermediate fudger
[Tue Apr 23 20:15:52 CDT 2002] Tim has no profile.
<yoda> Netscape/Mozilla will eventually win the browser wars - then we will all be using browserless portals :o)
<Steve Howard> sure
<Amy Blankenship> OK, guys, I am going to go get a few things done
<Tony Fortunato> Netscape is still in the top ten companies in the US right?
<Steve Howard> is that 'cause AOL own it?
<Sharon Brown> Yeah, I think so. AOL owns almost everything MS doesn't, it seems.
<Tony Fortunato> Oh.....
<Steve Howard> apart form me ;-)
<Tony Fortunato> didn't know that
<Steve Howard> and AOL is owned by Warner Brothers .. ?
<Sharon Brown> I think AOL is on top of WB, Steve.
<Tony Fortunato> ok
<Tony Fortunato> thanks Amy
<Steve Howard> Really? Wow AOL must be kinda big
<Amy Blankenship> I encourage those who want to stay and chat to continue
<Steve Howard> See ya Amy
<Sharon Brown> What's really interesting, though, is that AOL still uses IE as the basis for their own browser. Go figure.
<Amy Blankenship> Thank you very much, Carol and Sharon, and Mark, for coming in to answer our questions
<Steve Howard> MS got them in a headlock contract :-)
<yoda> good programming, Amy
<Amy Blankenship> and to Mark for providing tour expertise
<Sharon Brown> Bye, Amy and thanks.