May 14 2002 Chat Log

HOME

FAQ

CHAT

LINKS

<Amy Blankenship> Dan, why don't you tell us a bit more about what you think the base models should be
<Dan Wilson> Uh dunno a bunch of barrels with a bar on top
 Okay guys! I didn't mean to start everyone off on a Beer tangent (not that that's bad, or anything!).
<Dan Wilson> Okay
<Steve Howard> Just checking - yeah that was the tour ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> We can talk beer at 8 ;-)
<Dan Wilson> I am a medium level AW dude
<Steve Howard> :-)~
<Dan Wilson> Being such I did a lot of learning over AW5/6
[Tue May 14 18:50:29 CDT 2002] Stefan van As: Xena Warrior Princess
<Dan Wilson> I loved the KO's
<Steve Howard> Stefan :-) Hi
 Waz up Xena?
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Stefan
<Amy Blankenship> Welcome
<Stefan van As> Hey
<Dan Wilson> But found them always just a little different than what I wanted
<Dan Wilson> as the discussions have born out on the List
 That's a very common problem.
<Dan Wilson> As I learned I started to discover
<Dan Wilson> Mainly at TAAC talking to Jennie
 If you make it too automated, they seem to end up being very functionality limited/specific.
[Tue May 14 18:52:34 CDT 2002] Greg Boudreaux: FedEx
 Hello Greg!
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Greg
<Stefan van As> So, who's working on interesting models?
<Greg Boudreaux> hello mark
<Greg Boudreaux> everyone
<Amy Blankenship> You started to discover...?
<Amy Blankenship> I think everyone has their own models and bots
<Steve Howard> the thing is no matter how smart the KO or its builder, it is always going to have limitations that make it not suitable for what each individual wants
[Tue May 14 18:53:14 CDT 2002] Dan Wilson: Short and stocky ; )
<Dan Wilson> Back?
 I'm working on some really good stuff for an on-going project.
<Amy Blankenship> I guess if we collected some of the more generic ones, we could make an awesome collection
 Yup, you're back.
<Amy Blankenship> ah
<Dan Wilson> Whew
<Amy Blankenship> I wondered why you cut off
<Greg Boudreaux> I think the biggest limitation to a standard set of models is... They cant do everything for everybody
<Dan Wilson> Hear me out just a bit more
<Amy Blankenship> That's the idea behind using models as opposed to KO's
<Stefan van As> If you collect lots of u32's, Xtras, KOs, models, etc. then you can create some sort of "Authorware Value Pack" and sell it.
<Dan Wilson> I thought wouldn't it be great to have structured palettes
<Dan Wilson> one for interactions
 Yes, but the problem is in getting them all to work in similar fashions. New users don't need to be pelted with dozens of cosing styles and different types of icon layouts right off the bat.
<Dan Wilson> one for nav structures
<Greg Boudreaux> I have a pretty good, well rounded set... But they are designed around the way I think, program, and my needs
<Dan Wilson> AND
<Amy Blankenship> So, Mark, what you are saying is we kind of need coding standards
<Dan Wilson> Macromedia could use them as an awesome teaching structure
 I like the palettes idea, and the Model Palette would support that now - we just need the models.
<Greg Boudreaux> It would be hard to communicate my styles to the masses
<Greg Boudreaux> Exactly
 Amy - that would be my suggestion - either that, or one person/company building/modifying the models so they all work in a similar way.
[Tue May 14 18:55:55 CDT 2002] Chris Swenson: Code Monkey
<Amy Blankenship> Hm, so maybe a tutorial based on the models, kind of like what I started to do last year at TAW?
<Dan Wilson> How many times do we answer questions on the list without adding some code
<Greg Boudreaux> When someone submits some code with a "GoTo" in it... Who complains, takes it out... leaves it in.. etc.
<Christine Flack> Hi Chris
<Steve Howard> we have two separate ideas here - one for MM to include models with AW, and another to create an AW Resource Kit CD
<Chris Swenson> Hey
<Amy Blankenship> Hey, Chris
<Amy Blankenship> welcome!
<Chris Swenson> How's it go'n
<Amy Blankenship> Glad you could come
 Code Monkey!
<Steve Howard> did we get you out of bed Chris ? ;-)
<Chris Swenson> not this time....=+)
<Dan Wilson> They key thing with models is if you want it slightly different Greg, you can easily change it
<Dan Wilson> unlike KO's
<Chris Swenson> I see that we are discussing a resource CD...was this Stefan's idea?
<Steve Howard> yes
<Amy Blankenship> He suggested an "AW value pack"
<Chris Swenson> OK
<Steve Howard> same thing ;-)
 The idea of the AW Resource kit is a good one, but it will become dated quickly, hence the reliance on web-based items.
<Greg Boudreaux> I understand Dan, but when code is developed by the "community" of developers, some type of standard has to surface
<Dan Wilson> Nice structured coded examples would be invaluable toward teaching new users
<Amy Blankenship> So, do we want to go for "what do we want to teach"
 What is the purpose of the models? Is it to teach (which the ShowMe files are for) or is it to get new users up and productive quickly?
<Amy Blankenship> or do we want to go with "what do people need"
<Steve Howard> what about putting resources on the CD, plus the AW web sites, plus links? Then it is never outdated
 I think if we go with "what people need", then they can take those apart to learn as well.
<Steve Howard> Dan your ideas are great - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Chris Swenson> Or create an "updater" command...similar to the windows updater
<Amy Blankenship> What about a group project on the web
<Amy Blankenship> One person in charge of standardizing and posting
<Steve Howard> Sounds like a plan
 Chris - I got that one in the bag.
<Dan Wilson> I see two main divisions really, Teaching models that help new users grasp certain structures and another side that holds useful bits that we all make use of to speed things up
<Chris Swenson> Cool, I've been playing around with that too....we gotta find a way to let each other know what we are working on. =+)
<Steve Howard> so are we abandoning the idea of including useful models with AWXX and running of with a CD/Web hybrid project?
<Amy Blankenship> So, maybe a tutorial that makes use of really good models, and then some extra models that are "workhorses"?
<Dan Wilson> the one thing I found lacking in learning Authorware was putting it all together
<Steve Howard> and all them little widgets and bots
<Greg Boudreaux> Make a program that manages and updates the plugin automatically.
<Amy Blankenship> I was lucky that I had at least some adequate code to learn from
<Steve Howard> YES Dan - sadly that is the esoteric bit and it would take more than the manual
<Dan Wilson> I could see how a Framework worked six ways from Sunday but how do a make that into a course with segments and Topics
<Amy Blankenship> How do you define "automatically"? Every time you start AW it looks?
<Steve Howard> the ShowMe files try to plug that gap, but they are not all wonderful
<Amy Blankenship> Or whenever you launch IE?
<Greg Boudreaux> What would a well rounded set of models do to people in the business of writing code for others? Does it adversely affect them?
 The format for the ShowMe files is ages old and could be improved dramatically.
<Dan Wilson> No more than the thousands of examples on the List
<Amy Blankenship> I would not think so. Experience is priceless
<Steve Howard> no -because these models are samples, widgets. Not complete solutions, but learning tools and shortcuts
<Dan Wilson> Imagine a subroutine palette delivered with AW
<Amy Blankenship> The tutorials also wind up being more of a showcase for new features and less of a how to use Authorware (right)
<Steve Howard> Yes
<Greg Boudreaux> OK you mean samples not a complete set of working models
<Dan Wilson> And most of the time people Will tailor them eventually to their own likes
<Steve Howard> well - does that Camera tutorial really teach anybody how to use Authorware? does it really demonstrate the power that lurks beneath?
<Dan Wilson> Exactly Steve
<Greg Boudreaux> That's where I started..... along time ago
<Amy Blankenship> It's not even a good example of how to make a course in AW
<Amy Blankenship> I was pretty mortified
<Amy Blankenship> Stefan, I hope it wasn't yours :-D
<Steve Howard> Well they will work, Greg, but the plan is they would be a basis - a foundation. Just like the existing KOs are really - it's just everybody thinks they are supposed to e complete solutions
<Dan Wilson> Imagine a palette dedicated to navigational structures that had a simple linear Nav, a bi-level nav structure and a Multilevel structure
 Well, why couldn't/shouldn't they be complete solutions?
<Dan Wilson> All complete with well-commented code on how they work and what to change if you want X number of topics etc.
<Amy Blankenship> Like you said earlier, the more automated they are, the less they work for everyone
<Steve Howard> I started with the Maya tutorial in AW 4. It didn't teach me squat about building an application
<Greg Boudreaux> OK, are you talking about a complete drag and drop question model that scores and is easily modifiable, or just an interaction that explains how drag and drop works where the user has to complete the code around it to make it work as a question?
[Tue May 14 19:06:38 CDT 2002] Apurva has no profile.
<Dan Wilson> LOL I still hear those audio files Steve ;)
<Steve Howard> well, Mark they can be complete in that they work - but with the intended use being that they are there to be customized, not assumed to be carved in stone
<Apurva> Hi All
<Steve Howard> Hi Apurva
<Apurva> Hi Steve
<Apurva> what's the chat about ?
 Steve - no, not carved in stone, but also not so loose as to be useless to a new user. They need to not only teach, but be USABLE to build.
<Steve Howard> Greg - yes a complete question
<Greg Boudreaux> hello Apurva
<Dan Wilson> Actually Greg you could have complete structures and little pieces that save time
<Steve Howard> Apurva - we are discussing models for future versions of AW
<Apurva> oh OK
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Apurva
<Apurva> Hi Amy
<Greg Boudreaux> But you would also have to explain to the end user how to put the pieces together
<Apurva> can you fill me up in short what models were thought of ?
 Greg - right, and you could do that in a simple tutorial.
<Dan Wilson> Basically using models to teach and to include for rapid development Apurva
<Steve Howard> what I was meaning when I said they should not be complete is that it should be made abundantly clear that the user should explore and modify the models to suit their needs, not blindly copy them and live within their limitations
<Greg Boudreaux> For example
 Apurva - no models, per se, we're still discussing uses for the models
<Apurva> oh OK. Thanks Mark , Dan
<Steve Howard> we have no list yet - but are discussing what type to include - from complete questions to snippets - bots etc.
<Apurva> OK
<Dan Wilson> And for the more advanced user Mark you could just have good Comments that explain how it works and How to modify it
<Greg Boudreaux> I have a pretty good set of models that I use at work... I can teach anyone off the street (after they have had the Authorware tutorial) on how to use them
<Amy Blankenship> and we who answer questions and such would have a good foundation to point to
<Greg Boudreaux> But my models class lasts 3 days
<Steve Howard> Yes
 I'm thinking a 20-30 minute AW walk-through that discusses the icons and how they work together to build a course, and demo the models built with the icons and how to use them from the Model Palette.
<Amy Blankenship> Like the Northwinds database is for database tutorials
<Greg Boudreaux> There are so many details, that it takes several days for the concepts to set in
<Chris Swenson> Northwind.... =+) how many times have I seen that!
<Steve Howard> we need to consider the different levels of user too. We don't want to scare the willies out of them with 10-level property lists, but then we need to be able to offer advanced solutions that they can learn from too.
<Apurva> Microsoft's fav database to explain VB, VC and ASP
<Apurva> :)
 I found an interesting use for KOs the other day. I built a small set that open tutorials on how to use a model and update it - but doesn't actually run a wizard interface to do it for you.
<Amy Blankenship> maybe we could have a "rating" system for the models
<Steve Howard> yeah ;-)
<Dan Wilson> I'd be willing to bet that quite a few of us have pieces of almost any structure we create just waiting for a Command to come in and build them into a Lesson (where is Jules anyway?) ;)
<Chris Swenson> I like that idea of rating them....maybe a 5 level system
 PG-13, R, XXX?
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Chris Swenson> yes
<Chris Swenson> =+)
<Greg Boudreaux> haha
<Steve Howard> all the way up to Code Monkey
 Hey, it's late.
<Dan Wilson> Haha
<Amy Blankenship> And the kids are watching SnowDogs
<Dan Wilson> Those models are all Calcs
 And I can hear it, but not see the TV from here. And they got popcorn too!
<Greg Boudreaux> Snow... what's snow?
<Amy Blankenship> You must be in Louisiana, Boudreaux :-D
<Dan Wilson> I know that Jamil on the list at one time showed interest in this
<Greg Boudreaux> Yea, just a little New Orleans humor :-)
<Dan Wilson> he asked for suggestions and got none
<Amy Blankenship> Well, Stefan said he would pass the message
<Steve Howard> Dan why did you say that all the models are calcs?
 So, we've got a set(s) of models, all rated as to difficulty and organized by function, along with a tutorial to teach you how to use them and take them apart. Does that sound about right?
<Dan Wilson> Just the code Monkey ones Steve ;)
<Greg Boudreaux> I think for a set of models to be successful, they must be coded around some central programming concept and structure
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Amy Blankenship> Or two or three
<Dan Wilson> Yes to an extent Greg
<Amy Blankenship> to show different approaches
<Dan Wilson> Actually that is an awesome Idea
<Steve Howard> to do that, we need to be able to build a complete course from the models
<Steve Howard> in fact we need to be able to build several different types of course
<Chris Swenson> Greg I think it depends on how 'complex' the model is to be, for example I've got one that will run any SQL query and return the results...easy to drop into any file
 I think that the levels of difficulty would help to organize the different methods of implementation.
<Steve Howard> yup
<Chris Swenson> I think there is a need for even the "little" models
<Greg Boudreaux> Dan, based on some of the examples I've seen on the Authorware list lately... I don't think anything I write would work with anything Joshua or Chris write... ;-)
<Dan Wilson> You code even have a model that is used by a tutorial to show Good coding practices like commenting well structured format
 There is a HUGE need for the little models.
<Dan Wilson> etc.
<Steve Howard> but what I meant was the way to solve this is to build a course than extract the models ?? Is it??
 How often to we hear "how do I build drag-and-drop that does blah, blah, blah?
[Tue May 14 19:16:39 CDT 2002] Michael R. Mizen has no profile.
<Chris Swenson> yes I think it would be good to have "real world" examples using what ever models we come up with
<Steve Howard> Hi Mike
<Greg Boudreaux> hello Michael
<Michael R. Mizen> hello
 Well, there goes the neighborhood. Oh, I mean HELLO MIKE! ;-)
<Michael R. Mizen> chuckles
<Chris Swenson> Hey Mike
<Amy Blankenship> I would think that you would want to create a course that could be constructed from the models, then use it for a tutorial
<Steve Howard> absolutely. If they are worthless - like the application KO then they are pointless
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Mike
<Dan Wilson> Yep Mark and how often do we end up with a set of models that we use constantly to develop a wide range of pieces
<Amy Blankenship> The Application KO has some great code in it
<Amy Blankenship> what makes it hard to use is that it is above many users' heads
<Steve Howard> Sure - but nobody in their right mind uses the A KO to work ;-)
 Amy, Dan - yes, IMHO it would be IMPERATIVE that the models be USABLE for creating a FINISHED product.
<Apurva> sorry., got to rush for work . take care all of you. catch the chat later when it is posted.
<Greg Boudreaux> In a complete set, passing information from model to model is key... and if we start mix matching examples this will get lost... we need some base language of naming conventions, etc.
<Steve Howard> Completely
 Steve - yes they do!
<Amy Blankenship> and modifying it at all makes it so rerunning the wizard can be impossible
<Apurva> bye 4 now
<Chris Swenson> I'd like to push that ALL KO's be unlocked when inserted....I mean the real power isn't in the model(s) it pastes its the wizard
<Steve Howard> OK Apurva
<Steve Howard> take care
<Dan Wilson> I actually think the way to approach it would be to organize what they are for
<Amy Blankenship> Some developers are paranoid
<Amy Blankenship> either that someone will "steal" their code
 I've got several "clients" that have been building with the Application KO for months now.
<Amy Blankenship> or that the end user will break it somehow
<Steve Howard> Chris I agree
<Dan Wilson> Me too Chris
<Chris Swenson> Yeah but the real power of KO's is the wizard, not the resulting code...all the wizard can do is write AW code
<Michael R. Mizen> but opening the KO is even scary to the novice; more so to a beginner.
<Steve Howard> Mark you have a targeted product.
 What's the point? Most of the users that seek the automation that KOs offer couldn't make heads or tails out of the code inside one.
<Michael R. Mizen> yes
<Dan Wilson> I learn more by getting in and taking apart some code to see what makes it tick than I do any other way
<Dan Wilson> that is precisely why I am passionate about this Idea
<Steve Howard> yes but the point is the wizard is the bit you might want to hide, not the code it produces
<Amy Blankenship> It took me the LONGEST time to figure out how to get into a KO icon to put my OWN code in there!
<Greg Boudreaux> Are you going to provide the source for the wizard? or the source for the command? How do you explain CallTarget to the novice user?
<Dan Wilson> and the KO's aren't going anywhere
<Chris Swenson> But not to me. =+) I don't use KO's because I can't modify the result. I understand that if I change the code that the wizard will fail but if it would do 90% of the work then that's OK...as it is now I don't use any that are not unlocked because I don't have that option
<Steve Howard> I was pleased to discover you can still extract the calc code from locked KOs in AW 6 ;-)
<Dan Wilson> they are still there to use
<Amy Blankenship> They don't need to understand CallTarget to understand what the code the wizard WRITES does
<Chris Swenson> I'm working on a CallTarget Macro language that is going to be super simple to use...Christine has seen it maybe she can back me up =+)
<Greg Boudreaux> That would be nice Chris
<Dan Wilson> I could actually see a whole Palette of Models to be used with CallTarget Commands
<Dan Wilson> Doh
<Christine Flack> absolutely, and that is coming from a real beginner
<Dan Wilson> Really Chris?
<Chris Swenson> yep
<Greg Boudreaux> Amy, getting from point A to point B is what the end user really needs... if not, why give them anything they don't understand?
<Amy Blankenship> I don't understand what you are saying Greg
<Christine Flack> as a beginner, yes I would like to get from point a to b, but I also want to know how I got there
 We seem to be getting off-track a bit. Perhaps it would help if we defined the target audience for the model, and then what their need was?
<Dan Wilson> Greg I for one learn every time I look at code, if not a new concept then maybe just a different way to think about it
<Dan Wilson> Good Point Mark
<Greg Boudreaux> Looking at a regular function then looking at one wrapped in a CallTarget I think the new user would get really confused really fast
<Chris Swenson> Some things are just going to have to be complex..no matter what you do. I think clean code almost becomes more important
<Michael R. Mizen> amen to that
<Dan Wilson> LOL no argument there Greg
<Chris Swenson> Greg...I'm working on fixing that
<Greg Boudreaux> good
<Dan Wilson> Using CallTarget is like speaking Pig Latin
<Dan Wilson> you must think and add before you code
<Greg Boudreaux> Just coming from the angle from when I first saw a CallTarget ;-)
<Dan Wilson> Mark saved my but in teaching my how to wrap my code a few months back
 Did I? I'll have to send you a bill for that. ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> I think a major problem is that the first time some people see CallTarget, it is in MM code
<Dan Wilson> I can see three distinct target audiences Mark
<Amy Blankenship> which is, deliberately or not, very obfuscative
 No? Really?
<Greg Boudreaux> Expanding on Marks thought... Is the target a new user with no experience? or a mid level user that can't think dynamically? (where have I seen that word lately?)
<Steve Howard> I don't think we need to worry about CallTarget. That is either a thing of the past if Chris has his way, or something you show folk when they want to learn about making KOs - let them worry about if it is too advanced
<Dan Wilson> Beginners that get handed Models that show how all this stuff works
<Dan Wilson> these are basic well laid out heavily commented models that work alongside tutorials
 Don't worry about the CallTarget thing. Between Chris' Macro, and a new book we've got out soon that will be covered.
<Chris Swenson> Good point Steve...I think CallTarget will be taken care of (what I'm working on will be a free download)
<Chris Swenson> We've got a book that's about done as well (Joe is supposed to be finishing it up now....if not I'm just going to wrap it up)
<Chris Swenson> Back to models
 Good. So back to the models then...
<Dan Wilson> 2nd would be a Mid level target with advanced concepts that are still well laid out and well commented to show the user what to change if they want it to do things differently etc.
<Michael R. Mizen> new users should not use KO's. They need fundamentals and KO's take this away by introducing too much complexity. Users just look, groan, and accept that "it probably will work."
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so I guess the real question is "Are we willing to put in our own time and energy?" and "If we are, what kind of final product are we looking to make?"
<Chris Swenson> Mike...that's because they are locked. =+)
<Greg Boudreaux> Do wizards actually help new users learn Authorware?
<Michael R. Mizen> no even if they were open--
<Dan Wilson> a Third level would be pieces that could be used by all for rapid development
 It's not just because they're locked. It's because they're not doing what the user's need.
<Steve Howard> yeah - if they could see that some of those KOs just write one or two lines of code hay would seem a whole lot different
<Chris Swenson> Amy one problem that I see is that most clients have "special needs" so coming up with models that do the job and are easily modified is the trick
<Chris Swenson> and I think should be the focus of the models we discuss (just restating what was already said)
<Dan Wilson> Yep Chris
<Greg Boudreaux> Exactly Chris
 Here's a news flash for everyone - if a new user could open Authorware and build cbt/wbt right out of the box they'd be more happy then they are now.
<Michael R. Mizen> key words "are easily modified." I'd like to see that
<Steve Howard> Chris that is what I was meaning earlier when I stressed that these models have to be designed with customization by the user in mind
<Greg Boudreaux> The set I use doesn't call one wizard at all... I make my end users do certain things and modify certain parameters so they kinda know what's going on
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, we need to make it things where you change an icon title here and there to reshape the function
[Tue May 14 19:30:32 CDT 2002] Scott Simcoe: ssimcoe@lisp.com.au
<Greg Boudreaux> That's how my models work
<Amy Blankenship> I think that is how most models work, if they are well made
<Dan Wilson> Modification is the key
<Chris Swenson> Should we first list out a series of models we'd like to see and then discuss implementing them (the only reason for software is a solution to a problem)
<Steve Howard> yes - don't just offer clever models - introduce the user on day one to neat coding tricks that are omitted from the manual - like using IconTitle to set variables
<Dan Wilson> Yes
<Steve Howard> Chris - yes we need a list
<Amy Blankenship> One thing we need is a clear, framework-based backbone
<Amy Blankenship> not sure if that should be a model
<Michael R. Mizen> AWARE "pearls"
<Greg Boudreaux> Even make them change a few things manually that "could have been done for them" to teach them
<Christine Flack> yes
<Chris Swenson> Amy I agree...
<Amy Blankenship> but that is kind of buried in the recesses of the manual as something you'd even need
<Dan Wilson> Remember that these can be in separate palettes
<Dan Wilson> you could have a Navigation Palette
<Amy Blankenship> So, do we want to have the framework backbone and the navigation included in a single model?
<Chris Swenson> a basic navigation system that is flexible (add more buttons, easily shut buttons on and off, position buttons, etc.)
<Dan Wilson> a interaction palette
<Greg Boudreaux> I like the separate palette idea
<Dan Wilson> A subroutine palette
<Amy Blankenship> I wish palettes were dockable ;-)
<Steve Howard> three or four navigation systems - from My First Next Page button, to fully dynamic
<Chris Swenson> I know that when I start an AW piece I insert 2 frameworks first thing...Course (or pages whatever) and Subroutines
<Greg Boudreaux> Authorware MX should give you that
<Amy Blankenship> OK, but for a basic course, we start off needing a backbone
<Dan Wilson> I agree Steve
<Amy Blankenship> Let's talk about what is in the course, and identify good candidates for subroutines
<Steve Howard> me too Chris
<Chris Swenson> Sounds good
<Greg Boudreaux> Are we thinking granular?
<Steve Howard> yes
<Michael R. Mizen> simple interactions-cause and effects then cluster them into a framework then add subroutines for repeat tasks((a simple task-beep)
[Tue May 14 19:34:42 CDT 2002] Scott Simcoe: ssimcoe@lisp.com.au
<Steve Howard> Hi Scott
<Dan Wilson> Amy, how about the simple question Subroutine that Jennie uses?
 bookmarking, menu, records keeping, calculator, search/find,
<Amy Blankenship> I have not seen it
<Scott Simcoe> Hello again -I keep freezing
<Steve Howard> I have it somewhere
<Michael R. Mizen> is bookmarking that important?
 Scott - try a blanket and some wool socks ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Before we get to questions, I think we should look at content
<Chris Swenson> Another icon that I add first thing is a perpetual conditional called update (or start if I need an exit sub) that is called from every page when it is entered
<Steve Howard> don't play with the browser window Scott
<Amy Blankenship> Yes
<Scott Simcoe> Thanks Mark
<Steve Howard> it can be fragile
<Amy Blankenship> I call it a "kitchen sink" routine :-D
<Greg Boudreaux> Are we thinking Web and CD based? Take into consideration a LMS might be there?
<Dan Wilson> brb crying baby
<Amy Blankenship> That is a good point
<Steve Howard> baby steps !!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Amy Blankenship> we might want to add in some AICC and SCORM models
 ADL/SCORM v1.2, AICC, FTP, database-backend (web and server)
<Amy Blankenship> no, the baby is crying, not walking
<Greg Boudreaux> If so, and we are granular... there should be no menuing in the models
<Michael R. Mizen> no SCORM and AICC are not for beginners.
<Steve Howard> Framework - Navigation - Menu - video sub - sound sub - drag/drop Q ... etc.
<Amy Blankenship> Why do you say that, Greg?
<Greg Boudreaux> Menuing should be done by an external app... whether its another Authorware app or not
<Amy Blankenship> I think menuing is something models are great for
 Agreed - they're not for beginners, but you wouldn't believe what some companies are expecting out of a first project.
<Steve Howard> why should it be external app??????
<Amy Blankenship> Greg, that is just for SOME applications
<Chris Swenson> I disagree with Greg....Which may be a problem as we go along...we all code different
<Greg Boudreaux> AICC and SCORM require small chunks of content... menuing implies small chunks of content grouped
<Steve Howard> all the more reason to include different models
<Steve Howard> different methods are born out of different needs as well as out of different thought
<Amy Blankenship> Greg, just because we might provide models that will work with courses being used with LMS's shouldn't mean we should act like that is all a user might ever want
<Greg Boudreaux> You can't reuse content if it is grouped with other related/nonrelated content
<Greg Boudreaux> Just throwing Ideas out there
<Amy Blankenship> That is the whole reason the KO's aren't working out for many people
<Steve Howard> menus do not need to be grouped with anything. Greg we are targeting beginners first, Pros second
<Amy Blankenship> Likely advanced users will have their own models
<Steve Howard> yup
<Michael R. Mizen> maybe the flying metaphor is relevant to focus our thoughts. We learn to fly using small, single engine airplanes and graduate to big jets
 We're back to the question as to who are our target users?
<Steve Howard> yes.
<Amy Blankenship> How's this for an idea: old versions of AW used to have great buttons that you could import into your piece and they would just work
<Steve Howard> no ... just trying to get Greg out of his Phantom
<Steve Howard> ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> The button and interface graphics that come with AW now are really ugly
<Amy Blankenship> and are just graphics
<Greg Boudreaux> I think a set of models for delivering content/questions etc. and a separate set for menuing and grouping the delivery set is more flexible
<Amy Blankenship> what about putting together some attractive buttons and things
<Chris Swenson> Greg agreed, models should be task based...and when possible not be dependent on other models to work (this makes them more flexible)
<Steve Howard> do we need to worry about design too? you know how great I am at design :-/
<Amy Blankenship> Greg: that really depends on how you are putting it together
<Michael R. Mizen> buttons and things should be done elsewhere and imported. Like Dreamweaver/Fireworks combo
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: what I am saying is it would be nice if AW shipped with some pretty buttons you could just drag onto the flowline from a model palette
 No matter how cool the interfaces are that you build, there's going to be a good % of users who can't use them for one reason or another.
<Amy Blankenship> with up, over, down, and checked already set up
<Amy Blankenship> Sure, that is true Mark
<Michael R. Mizen> MM did this in 3.5 with graphics from TOTO/Charles Rholl
<Amy Blankenship> but it is better than the stuff that comes with AW now
<Greg Boudreaux> I agree Amy... I guess everyone thinks differently :-)
 Those were pretty decent, I used several of those interfaces myself.
<Amy Blankenship> Really? Those were nice buttons. I remember we used them
<Steve Howard> you guys are all really old
<Amy Blankenship> You are mean
<Steve Howard> :-)~
 No, we just buy cheap, discounted, out-of-date versions of popular software.
<Chris Swenson> lets see 3.5...I think I had just started college. =+)
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Steve Howard> I was working in a factory testing cam belts
<Michael R. Mizen> if I guess the party line at MM it would be for AWARE to team up with Fireworks specialists and give us some graphics. Of course this means the AWARE budget will need to pay the Fireworks budget.
<Chris Swenson> =+)
<Chris Swenson> Interface components aren't real important to me because we rarely reuse any of them
<Amy Blankenship> Well, I think we are all considering the topic under discussion as a volunteer effort
<Amy Blankenship> that we either let MM have, or put up somewhere on the web
<Dan Wilson> back
<Steve Howard> since the new learning studio contains FlashMX an FWMX and DWMX there could be some justification in getting the FW team involved
<Greg Boudreaux> I have been trying to learn Java recently... I guess that has me thinking that everything should be a nice need small object
<Amy Blankenship> AW does not function that way very well
<Dan Wilson> You guys sort the details yet?
<Greg Boudreaux> neat
<Amy Blankenship> You tend to have cross ties all over the place in AW
<Amy Blankenship> Dan...yews...you can go to bed now :-D
<Greg Boudreaux> Everything needs ties somewhere
<Dan Wilson> :-)
<Michael R. Mizen> Need to wish you all a god night
<Chris Swenson> I'd like to see basic
<Chris Swenson> stuff
<Greg Boudreaux> I saw a demo of Flash MX today... I think that Authorware would benefit from some of the internal widgets they provide in Flash
<Steve Howard> OK Mike - Bless you ;-)
<Greg Boudreaux> later Michael
<Dan Wilson> See ya Mike
<Chris Swenson> like text with images and sounds, video with controls, MC/TF questions, etc.
<Steve Howard> like what Greg?
 AW could benefit from a lot of the technology they put into Flash, Dreamweaver, UltraDev and the like.
<Chris Swenson> but we need to be careful
 Careful of what?
<Greg Boudreaux> I agree
<Chris Swenson> Not just rebuilding the application KO only unlocked I guess
<Dan Wilson> Good point Chris
<Steve Howard> Yup. We need to keep sight of the idea of lots of little models
<Chris Swenson> I'm going to retract something I said before.
 Lots of little pieces that can work together, or independently, and are backed-up with some form of tutorial or preview.
<Chris Swenson> I think the basic basic stuff we shouldn't do
<Greg Boudreaux> Yes
<Steve Howard> do we avoid stepping on the toes of the KOs? Like no Send Email model? even though almost any other method is easier to use?
<Chris Swenson> people will need to have at least a basic understanding of how some things work
 Chris - Why not?
<Chris Swenson> see above. =+)
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: I think the purpose is to GIVE people an understanding of how things work
 OK, now we're back to trying to identify the target user and their needs.
<Chris Swenson> If somebody needs to show text and an image then they should be able to drag those out...if they need to retrieve a record set from a php server...then we should provide that
<Amy Blankenship> I think what we really want to do is give at least one example of a "properly" authored course
<Greg Boudreaux> It can go both ways, I work with people who want to know all the inner code, and I work with some who just want to change a parameter
<Chris Swenson> Amy I agree
<Steve Howard> so who decides what "properly" is?
<Dan Wilson> Amen Amy
 And what if that course was a course on building courses with Authorware....
<Amy Blankenship> Chris...I don't see how you could address that, since the PHP part is outside the scope
<Dan Wilson> That should be one of the Top priorities
<Steve Howard> my clients love what I do, but Chris and Amy would hate it ... who is right?
<Chris Swenson> Should that be separate from the models though....I've got many examples of a good course but only 30% is generic enough to reuse
<Dan Wilson> I like the way you think Mark
<Chris Swenson> How often do we see things like "how do I retrieve data from ASP or PHP" on the list?
<Chris Swenson> How do I connect to a database?
<Chris Swenson> etc.
<Steve Howard> ASP daily - PHP ... ?
<Dan Wilson> Fact of life is this we could all bash heads together and come up with what we think is the perfect way
<Amy Blankenship> I think that one thing we all agree on is "properly" involved using frameworks and making as much use of the inbuilt functionality of the icons as possible
<Steve Howard> but you are right - easy dB integration would be nice.
[Tue May 14 19:53:05 CDT 2002] Rick Zanotti: rzanotti@relate.com
<Chris Swenson> Steve...the Authorware code would be identical...the Asp, php, perl, etc. would have to change for each language...just a thought anyways
<Steve Howard> Hi Rick
<Rick Zanotti> Hi Folks.
<Dan Wilson> I Think Steve's idea of showing a few ways to do things is Solid
<Chris Swenson> hi Rick
 Hey, Rick.
<Amy Blankenship> also, properly means that if you repeat the same functionality over and over, it should be in a single place
<Greg Boudreaux> hello Rick
<Amy Blankenship> Hey Rick
<Amy Blankenship> whether that place is a subroutine or a library icon
<Dan Wilson> But with the added bonus of if someone doesn't like it they can change it and do it their way
<Chris Swenson> OK how about this though...I don't believe in putting calcs in a library...others do...who's right?
<Amy Blankenship> Chris--I didn't either, but I love it now
<Chris Swenson> I never replicate code
<Amy Blankenship> I think good use of libraries should at least be demonstrated
<Steve Howard> I put them in libraries all the time
<Steve Howard> makes my life easy
<Steve Howard> yes - people do not see how to use them
<Chris Swenson> see and there is an issue, how do we determine "what is the best way" and all stay friends. =+)
 Well, to start off with, I'd suggest nominating a project lead. Someone who could be the deciding voice in the discussion.
<Greg Boudreaux> I have some code that is replicated... it is easier for my end users to understand and modify... I had to draw a fine line between what I want and what they need
<Scott Simcoe> You have several ways to tackle the same problem, each having its own pros and cons
<Dan Wilson> beat me too it Mark
<Amy Blankenship> Chris, if people use libraries, and there are circumstances under which it is good to use libraries (and obviously, there are, or they would not exist), then proper use of libraries should be demonstrated
<Steve Howard> But Chris, I already said we should be showing alternative methods
 And that wouldn't be me. I'm getting enough grief for volunteering to help with the AW Certification thing as it is.
<Dan Wilson> or even a top three that decide what stays and what goes
<Steve Howard> no one way is "best" or "right"
<Chris Swenson> And who do we "trust" to do that Mark. I wouldn't want to push my coding methods on others...I'd like to see a council
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, Chris, I agree...It should not be any one person's voice dominating
<Chris Swenson> Well except for Christine...since I have to work with her =+)
<Amy Blankenship> So either a council or someone who is not pushy
<Steve Howard> Yup - three or 5 folk
<Rick Zanotti> A standards committee?
<Amy Blankenship> That lets me out :-D
 If you make this a group decision type of thing it will never get done.
<Christine Flack> lol
<Steve Howard> Well you have a team with an odd number and so there is always gonna be a majority
<Dan Wilson> I am just doing this to weasel all those delicious Models out of you Guru's : )
<Chris Swenson> Yes an odd number will work...and experts in different areas
<Steve Howard> or make one soul Head Standards Wallah in the team ;-)
<Greg Boudreaux> Maybe a series of articles on how to do a certain concept with a simple example would be better... Apurva has a lot of this and it works very well
<Amy Blankenship> Actually, I think it is likely to come down to who is willing to do it
<Dan Wilson> I think 3 should be the limit getting three to discuss it out is exponentially easier than 5
<Steve Howard> yes Amy -- and time and momentum
 Amy - you're probably right. This isn't a small project.
<Dan Wilson> nope
<Greg Boudreaux> My models are an ongoing project
[Tue May 14 19:59:38 CDT 2002] Christine: The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
<Greg Boudreaux> They never end
<Amy Blankenship> So, do we want to look at this incrementally?
<Steve Howard> it would be better if we could convince MM to hire us to take it on
<Amy Blankenship> Ha...they just laid off 110 people
<Dan Wilson> I actually envisioned it coming from MM myself Steve
<Amy Blankenship> I think that is not likely
<Chris Swenson> I'd like to see 5, this could be a huge project. I'd like to open it have anybody be able to submit code for review. In which case there could be a large amount of code to review and tweak
<Steve Howard> like how? Gather little models, questions etc. first, then se how to make them seem like a team
[Tue May 14 20:00:47 CDT 2002] Rick Zanotti: rzanotti@relate.com
<Steve Howard> Yeah Dan but these energetic folk hijacked the idea as a pet project ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> I think a problem we are STILL facing is "what do we want"
<Dan Wilson> I would start with the committee just getting a list of the things to put in it
<Amy Blankenship> Yes
<Greg Boudreaux> I don't think I am on the same coding level as some of you... but I would be willing to help
<Dan Wilson> that will be the first Huge step
<Dan Wilson> then ask for code submittals
<Amy Blankenship> Greg: we need coders of all levels
<Steve Howard> we definitely need a list first
<Chris Swenson> I'd like to not limit the scope except that we need a "first round" for next fall (TAAC time) or around then anyways
<Steve Howard> shopping list ...
<Amy Blankenship> So, solicit from the community at large, then pat it into some kind of order
<Amy Blankenship> Hey, Mark, that might be a good discussion time
<Steve Howard> yeah ... sounds like an idea
<Chris Swenson> And also work with in the expertise of the group
<Amy Blankenship> Or even <gasp> as an alternative to the Games
<Dan Wilson> Sometimes its seeing it through the eyes of the beginners that is hardest Greg, Not saying your a beginner
<Greg Boudreaux> A manager model - that manages paging, communication, other models
<Greg Boudreaux> Multiple Choice
<Greg Boudreaux> Mark All that Apply
<Chris Swenson> If somebody is a database whiz then we should have database models, if somebody is a bot whiz then bot models...etc.
<Greg Boudreaux> Drag and Drop
<Greg Boudreaux> Matching
<Steve Howard> I think some of us deal with beginners daily - we can probably second-guess a lot of issues
<Greg Boudreaux> Text entry (multiple)
<Christine> I would be willing to volunteer as a beginner
<Greg Boudreaux> Generic Page Model
<Amy Blankenship> Cool
<Greg Boudreaux> Explore Page Model - with built in buttons
<Chris Swenson> Christine is good at that.
<Steve Howard> so we got 2 volunteers so far ...
<Greg Boudreaux> A Score Test Model
<Amy Blankenship> I'd be interested in putting together an interface or two
<Chris Swenson> I hand her code and she'll say OK I don't get it
<Chris Swenson> no worries with her
<Chris Swenson> =+)
<Christine> yes, all day long
<Amy Blankenship> no matter how we wind up doing this, we will need an interface
<Chris Swenson> I'd volunteer
<Steve Howard> I can do that too Chris ;-)
<Steve Howard> I'm in too ;-|D
<Steve Howard> so we got 4 ....
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so who will be the "council"?
<Dan Wilson> I do that all the time with your code Chris ;)
<Dan Wilson> then I turn it sideways and it makes sense
<Chris Swenson> I think before we all jump in with a Me Too (like a brain dead AOL'r) we should define the roles that should sit on the council
<Steve Howard> me, Chris, Greg, Christine and ....
<Dan Wilson> I would love to but am time locked for 2 months
<Steve Howard> wow Chris you are so organized :-)
<Dan Wilson> I will certainly help anywhere I can
<Amy Blankenship> Dan, I think it is likely that it will be just "what goes in this thing" for a while.
<Chris Swenson> 1 beginner, 1 AW Only guru, 1 AW web guru, 1 Code monkey, 1 something else?
<Amy Blankenship> I don't think I fit any of those things...except maybe something else
<Dan Wilson> DB guru?
 Council Positions: Chief Poo-Bah, Model Wrangler, Code Cleaner, Comment Coder
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Dan Wilson> LOL
<Dan Wilson> makes a lot of sense after the humor mark!
<Steve Howard> So who is a good Poo-Bah?
<Amy Blankenship> Mark...you kind of look like a Pooh-bah to me
<Chris Swenson> do we get funny hats and a handshake with that ==)
<Amy Blankenship> No, we wear these special rings and everyone spreads rumors that we are trying to take over the world
 Hey, that's a GRAND Poo-Bah.
<Steve Howard> I want a ring and a handshake
 And a Fez.
<Dan Wilson> Wait that is the certification thing Amy :-)
<Amy Blankenship> oops
<Chris Swenson> Take a look at the Jedi project for Delphi sometime...it sort of works like what we are discussing
<Greg Boudreaux> Are you guys planning on discussing this at TAAC?
<Chris Swenson> do a google search on Delphi Jedi
<Steve Howard> of course
<Amy Blankenship> do we have to feel the force now?
<Greg Boudreaux> I may or may not be there, my wife is expecting during that timeframe
<Dan Wilson> Is Chris sitting there in Darth Maul paint?
<Chris Swenson> too many Star Wars references =+)
<Amy Blankenship> OK, I think we have gone round in circles for an hour and a half now
<Chris Swenson> too short more like Yoda =+)
<Amy Blankenship> so what action, if any, are we taking out of this?
<Steve Howard> do we make another stab at a real list?
<Greg Boudreaux> I listed a few earlier
<Steve Howard> do we agree a caretaker council?
<Chris Swenson> I think so?
<Chris Swenson> nominations?
<Dan Wilson> Sounds good
<Amy Blankenship> yes, but who/what?
<Steve Howard> we can certainly pull the suggestions out of the log .. but has anyone got a burning suggestion untyped
<Chris Swenson> or do we ask the AWare list
<Amy Blankenship> I nominate you Chris
<Dan Wilson> Chris code Yoda
<Steve Howard> I second Chris :-)
<Greg Boudreaux> I think asking the List is a good Idea this, little of that" person
< Rick Zanotti> third
<Greg Boudreaux> There are alot of good Aware developers on that list that I look up to
<Steve Howard> Amy you are not a little of anything
<Greg Boudreaux> Most of them are you guys
<Chris Swenson> I nominate Amy...she's the kind of person that will keep the council honest
<Amy Blankenship> Greg: I disagree...this needs a high level of interest
<Steve Howard> <blush>
 Don't forget to pull from the TAAC samples on my site. LOTS of great content there.
<Amy Blankenship> Me?
<Steve Howard> Amy seconded :D
<Dan Wilson> A little of everything is Excellent pooh bah material
<Amy Blankenship> Cool...Fox in charge of the hen house :-D
<Greg Boudreaux> Disagree on what?
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Christine> go Amy
<Amy Blankenship> Greg: that we should ask the list
<Amy Blankenship> anyone can say "yeah, I'd love to do that"
<Amy Blankenship> but if they are really all that interested, why aren't they here
<Steve Howard> Exactly
<Steve Howard> at 2 am
<Chris Swenson> I'd be comfy with Amy in charge... it needs to be a strong figure head with an understanding of a wide range of Authorware experience and not somebody that would make the council a "good old boys" group
<Dan Wilson> Nav structures, Interactions, Database stuff, web stuff, subroutine, Training palette, CallTarget fodder Palette
[Tue May 14 20:14:01 CDT 2002] Scott Simcoe: ssimcoe@lisp.com.au
<Amy Blankenship> wow...that is a lot of responsibility
<Amy Blankenship> I will try to step up to the plate
<Greg Boudreaux> I was extremely interested in last weeks chat... but I was on vacation... just couldn't make it...
<Rick Zanotti> Good ol' persons (politically correct, Chris)
<Chris Swenson> just keep do'n what your do'n
<Chris Swenson> =+)
<Amy Blankenship> yes, Greg...there is the log
<Greg Boudreaux> I read it
<Greg Boudreaux> then commented on the AWARE list
<Amy Blankenship> so, officially, for all of you who could not make it, if you want to volunteer contact me!
<Dan Wilson> I agree Chris this chat thing is a huge good thing for the community
<Greg Boudreaux> I love this
<Steve Howard> YES YES YES
<Greg Boudreaux> Amy, this was a very good idea
<Chris Swenson> Any body not here that should be nominated?
<Amy Blankenship> You guys are going to make me blush
<Greg Boudreaux> Not sure Chris
<Amy Blankenship> hm...I think we should aim for some MM guidance
<Chris Swenson> I know me...I'm a push over =+) not one to head it up, you on the other hand fit the role better.
<Steve Howard> um - lots really, but like Amy said - they are not here
<Greg Boudreaux> Maybe they wouldn't be interested
<Greg Boudreaux> Yea
<Dan Wilson> Umm I actually think there will be tons of volunteers once it hits the list
<Chris Swenson> I think thaws OK that they are not here...I almost didn't make it
<Rick Zanotti> An AW advisory council to MM...
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so post to the list <Greg Boudreaux> I think MM has to endorse these models are they won't be
<Chris Swenson> I'd like to see the council be strong as possible
<Steve Howard> hmmm - you are a bit late there Rick
<Greg Boudreaux> as respected by the new user
<Dan Wilson> I think MM as a buffer might save some egos
<Amy Blankenship> but we need to make sure that anyone who volunteers will stay the course
<Rick Zanotti> I missed most of this - sorry...
<Chris Swenson> I think getting them into the goodies shouldn't be an issue, getting them installed might be...but getting them on the disk shouldn't be an issue
<Steve Howard> there is already an Advisory Council - check out help> About in AW
<Amy Blankenship> I would like to see them in the KO folder
<Rick Zanotti> lots of room on the disk too
<Steve Howard> yes
<Dan Wilson> Like I said earlier Jamil showed interest in this on the List before
<Dan Wilson> I bet he will be tickled at the log
<Chris Swenson> I can say that QA is back logged at MM with the MX suite coming out
<Chris Swenson> from what I hear
<Amy Blankenship> Dan: Despite the fact that I seem to wind up " in the middle of things" a lot on the list, it is not usually because my ego feels threatened
<Chris Swenson> there is less QA involved with getting them into the goodies
<Amy Blankenship> I am just talented at finding spats :-D
<Greg Boudreaux> Authorware MX?
<Chris Swenson> and the goodies command is helping
<Dan Wilson> not at all Amy
 Just a heads up. EVERYTHING that goes on the AW CD has to pass through the QA dept.
<Chris Swenson> Not that I've heard
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Chris Swenson> Yes but there is a different level of QA for the goodies
<Amy Blankenship> Well, maybe we can put a readme in the goodies folder that tells people to put it in the KO's folder
<Dan Wilson> But if 18 people volunteer code and a few are told no they might be a lil upset
<Steve Howard> well if we get it on the CD and include an installer that installs the lot - or just the beginner's models, or the advanced, or just menus....
<Dan Wilson> if we used a MM buffer then it seems a lot less personal
<Chris Swenson> Or just create installers for them so that when they are clicked on from the goodies command they auto install
<Rick Zanotti> Why not download from web?
<Chris Swenson> I should look before I hit enter huh Steve. =+)
<Chris Swenson> Should be both
<Amy Blankenship> That is a good point...how do we credit code, especially if it winds up being a combo of several ideas
<Dan Wilson> maybe even make a contest out of it once the area's and a list is developed
<Chris Swenson> and installed set and a way to update from the web (new versions, new models, etc.)
<Dan Wilson> that might get people to pay more attention to commenting and structuring etc.
<Steve Howard> We have a credit for the "team" and a list of names
<Chris Swenson> place a comment in each section "provided by...." a lot of opensource projects work this way
<Amy Blankenship> if we made a contest out of it, what would be the prize? <Steve Howard> half an hour with me? ;-)
<Chris Swenson> Yes a contest (with what prize?) would be good way to go
<Greg Boudreaux> T-shirt?
 <shudder>
<Chris Swenson> $@#! did it again!
<Dan Wilson> Chasing sheep Steve?
<Steve Howard> :-)
<Dan Wilson> Get MM to offer stuff
<Amy Blankenship> Maybe we can talk Mark out of some TAAC T-shirts
<Dan Wilson> T-shirts are big!
<Dan Wilson> lol
<Greg Boudreaux> TAAC5 leftover T-shirts
<Rick Zanotti> MM can donate a copy of Flash 5
 T-shirts are no sweat.
<Amy Blankenship> LOL
 Hey, I got lots of TODCON stuff ;-)
<Chris Swenson> I'd offer a few hour blocks of consulting time....
<Chris Swenson> or anything I've got sitting around that might be of value
<Amy Blankenship> Or maybe a little engraved plaque that they could stick on their desk somewhere
<Rick Zanotti> there go the last 2 hours in your day Chris
<Chris Swenson> hey who needs sleep. =+)
<Dan Wilson> smiles
<Chris Swenson> when there is "red bull"
 I'll offer up two kids. (my choice which ones)
<Amy Blankenship> I have some extra dogs
<Rick Zanotti> LOL
<Dan Wilson> I would be happy knowing that something very useful got created
 Red Strip... It's BEER.
[Tue May 14 20:24:11 CDT 2002] Steve H: victim of crappy UK phone system
<Amy Blankenship> aw
<Greg Boudreaux> I think New Users would be happy too... Dan
<Chris Swenson> Beer + Chris = cool code only I can read. =+)
<Amy Blankenship> I do that sober LOL
<Steve Howard> well - give us all beer then
<Dan Wilson> That must mean your drunk all the time Chris :-)
<Chris Swenson> I'd like to see if MM would offer anything, some of us have products or services we could offer as prizes
<Greg Boudreaux> I cant even keep up with that back and forth you and Joshua do Chris
<Chris Swenson> Yes Dan you'd think so. =+)
<Dan Wilson> I agree Chris
<Dan Wilson> I just want to tell my friends a work with Models
<Amy Blankenship> LOL
<Dan Wilson> So what's the Plan Pooh Bah?
<Steve Howard> :D
<Steve Howard> Poo Bear?
<Chris Swenson> So OK we can offer prizes....should we set up a poll somewhere on what models to create? and base the "contest" on those
<Chris Swenson> ?
<Amy Blankenship> I think I can set up a form to do that
<Greg Boudreaux> We need a standard to code to first
<Steve Howard> no the standard cannot be set up-front
<Steve Howard> not until we see all that is before us
<Steve Howard> and not until we wrangle over code styles.
<Greg Boudreaux> I don't think my code would work well with anyone else's
<Amy Blankenship> I think it will help to know what we are coding before we decide how to code
<Dan Wilson> I think set a time to render the log down come up with a plan or structure for what to create and pass it around or chat again to go over it
<Chris Swenson> I'd say another chat....
<Dan Wilson> Once it is set then hold the contest
<Chris Swenson> There are some things that will need a great deal of discussion. =+)
<Chris Swenson> I would like to see if Mark Bainbridge would be interested in sitting on the council
<Amy Blankenship> OK, well the next most popular chat topic is open chat
<Dan Wilson> that time would allow for discussion of the concept on the list and with MM about their interest and participation
<Chris Swenson> His brain works WAY better then mine does
 May I offer a suggestion to the group? 1. Identify your target user and their need. 2. Create a succinct set of standards 3. Identify the model set to create 4. Poll the community for samples.
<Chris Swenson> Any body object to me seeing if he is interested?
[Tue May 14 20:29:00 CDT 2002] Steve: victim of crappy UK phone system
<Amy Blankenship> I don't
<Steve Howard> grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
<Dan Wilson> not at all
<Dan Wilson> Fall off the wagon again Steve?
<Greg Boudreaux> Marks outline looks pretty good to me
<Chris Swenson> Cool....I look at his code and am always amazed
<Chris Swenson> I like the outline suggested by Mark
<Dan Wilson> Yep
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so Chris and I were definitely volunteered. Christine, too...I have lost track of who else is helping coordinate
<Amy Blankenship> Is everyone else here interested in helping in some way?
<Christine> yep
<Chris Swenson> We also need to set a base number of members....it can grow but we need to determine a number. 3, 5, 7? on the council anyways
<Dan Wilson> I'd like to be involved Amy but depends on the time involved
<Dan Wilson> I can resound several times a day but that is about it
<Chris Swenson> And Ron L. he is a model wise
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so you want to be involved, but not in a critical (time-wise) role
<Chris Swenson> I can set up a separate mailing list
<Greg Boudreaux> I am willing... but I may need a timeframe and level of difficulty
<Chris Swenson> if it's needed
<Chris Swenson> which I think it is
<Dan Wilson> Yep
<Amy Blankenship> OK, cool
[Tue May 14 20:31:59 CDT 2002] S H: victim of crappy UK phone system
<Dan Wilson> Chris sounds like he really has a handle on peoples strengths
<Steve Howard> :-(
<Chris Swenson> Hey it's Steve and his evil twin. =+)
<Amy Blankenship> wow...Steve you are being victimized over and over
<Steve Howard> yup - I must be a terrible sinner
<Steve Howard> ;-(
<Steve Howard> I hope you guys are being nice while I am away
<Chris Swenson> maybe...again don't let this be a "good old 'persons'" group...stop me when ever
<Amy Blankenship> Chris, definitely invite whoever you want
<Dan Wilson> I agree
<Amy Blankenship> for now, the people who are keeping everything moving are you, me, and Christine, I think
<Dan Wilson> Good ole boys/girls or not
<Amy Blankenship> Is that everyone who was willing to make the time commitment?
<Steve Howard> I volunteered earlier
<Amy Blankenship> Oops
<Amy Blankenship> sorry
<Steve Howard> :-)
<Amy Blankenship> So now we have 4
<Amy Blankenship> we need to be decidedly odd
<Chris Swenson> Everybody send me an email chris@dazzletech.com or chris@mojomole.com and I'll make sure you get instructions for getting on the mailing list
<Amy Blankenship> need one more
<Amy Blankenship> Cool
<Greg Boudreaux> Give me a few things to do... I can work on a task by task basis
<Amy Blankenship> So should we leave the fifth open?
<Chris Swenson> I think so
<Amy Blankenship> OK, that is cool
<Greg Boudreaux> I would rather you guys call the shots
 I'd like to volunteer to help, but I've got a conflict of interest with 123..CBT. However, I will volunteer a whole pile of sample models.
<Greg Boudreaux> I can do things as needed
<Dan Wilson> Amy, Do that if someone else shows great if Not I would be happy to do it
<Dan Wilson> I don't think this will be done in a month
<Amy Blankenship> OK, cool
<Dan Wilson> and I should be much clearer in 3-4 weeks
<Amy Blankenship> Mark, that is understandable
<Greg Boudreaux> Will these models ultimately hurt products like Marks?
<Amy Blankenship> I don't think so
<Steve Howard> nope.
<Amy Blankenship> any more than the KO does
<Greg Boudreaux> That's one thing I do not want to do
<Amy Blankenship> just another option
 Probably to a small extent. That's commercialism.
<Steve Howard> if it did it would hurt us all - that won't happen
<Dan Wilson> I agree the KO's are more likely to do it and they haven't
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so our action items are: post to the list for volunteers
 Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with this project at all. I think it's VERY worth while and SHOULD be done.
<Amy Blankenship> Try to get ideas together about what the models should be
<Steve Howard> just because we supply bricks, that does not mean we supply the skill and expertise to build a skyscraper
 Right.
<Amy Blankenship> get our thoughts together about coding standards
<Greg Boudreaux> Amy, types of models or what they should do... or both
<Chris Swenson> OK I'm setting up the list what should the name be? AW_Models?
<Amy Blankenship> Sounds fine to me
<Steve Howard> good enough
 LOL
<Amy Blankenship> Greg, both
<Chris Swenson> OK give me a second. =+)
<Christine> good
<Steve Howard> done it yet?
<Steve Howard> you've had several
<Greg Boudreaux> OK
<Greg Boudreaux> I will start tomorrow
<Chris Swenson> hang on it's go'n =+)
<Amy Blankenship> I think that that is enough until the next chat
<Steve Howard> bored now
<Steve Howard> ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> so come back in 10 days and repeat the chat
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Dan Wilson> and that is just with his left hand, Chris probably has 3 models written with his right by now
<Amy Blankenship> try to get someone from MM here
<Steve Howard> I will not be able to
<Amy Blankenship> oh, yeah
<Amy Blankenship> oops
<Greg Boudreaux> Will this chat topic be separate from the standard weekly topic?
<Amy Blankenship> I guess we will have to do it before that, because I am going to Mississippi Memorial Day week
<Amy Blankenship> I usually have chats every 10 days
<Dan Wilson> Amy wait and see what the next few days renders
<Dan Wilson> that should help decide when
<Amy Blankenship> But we can make it on Thursday...the 22nd I think it is
<Chris Swenson> send a message here to subscribe:
<Steve Howard> I can make that - Thursday 23rd
<Amy Blankenship> Greg: I would like to be able to do a separate chat, but it is a lot of effort ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> K
<Chris Swenson> AW_Models-Subscribe@topica.com
<Amy Blankenship> Tentatively Thursday the 23rd
<Greg Boudreaux> OK, just asking... not trying to make more work for you
<Amy Blankenship> Thursday
<Amy Blankenship> anything special in the subject or body
<Chris Swenson> nope just send an email
<Amy Blankenship> done
<Dan Wilson> Okay, I gotta run y'all
<Amy Blankenship> have a good one, Dan
<Greg Boudreaux> later Dan
<Chris Swenson> Cool there is one
<Chris Swenson> bye Dan
<Christine> bye
<Steve Howard> see ya Dan
<Dan Wilson> Be good ya'll
<Dan Wilson> and watch the three Steves
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, you never know what they will do when one of them has his back turned
<Steve Howard> :D
<Steve Howard> it's the sheep that are worries
<Steve Howard> worried
<Greg Boudreaux> OK, I will start compiling some thoughts tomorrow
<Amy Blankenship> OK
<Amy Blankenship> cool
 The sheep are scared?
<Steve Howard> no - worried ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> I thought it was wolly
<Amy Blankenship> oops
<Amy Blankenship> woolly
<Steve Howard> what? the sheep?
<Chris Swenson> I've got some models I can donate right off the bat.
<Amy Blankenship> I think we all do
<Steve Howard> Cool - good man :-)
<Chris Swenson> where should be store them? Authorware.com? Authorware-amy.com?
<Steve Howard> yup .. a couple
<Amy Blankenship> but...we need to fit them into some sort of logical structure
<Greg Boudreaux> I guess Chris has began the structure we should follow
<Amy Blankenship> Oh, I think Authorware.com is way more of a clearinghouse
<Steve Howard> is that French?
<Amy Blankenship> Greg that's not necessarily the best way
<Amy Blankenship> Chris is warped, man
<Chris Swenson> OK I'll see about getting an area set up
<Greg Boudreaux> I know
<Amy Blankenship> we need to make sure we keep him from getting too far over newbie heads
<Amy Blankenship> and we all need to agree on a way of working
<Chris Swenson> Yes that would be nice
<Steve Howard> yeah - I reckon we need to aim lower ;-)
<Greg Boudreaux> Maybe we should begin with Marks outline from earlier
<Amy Blankenship> Yes
<Chris Swenson> I'll abuse Christine (more so then I do now) on making sure they are readable/ usable
<Amy Blankenship> but not tonight
<Amy Blankenship> we keep going around in circles
<Christine> oh no, what have I gotten myself into?
<Amy Blankenship> I think we need to get some distance
<Steve Howard> we don't want to know about what you do with poor Christine
<Amy Blankenship> and come back to this after we have had some time to look at the problem
<Greg Boudreaux> good idea
<Greg Boudreaux> I got to run anyway
<Amy Blankenship> Not too much distance, though
<Chris Swenson> Agreed, I'd like to get a few models up soon though so we can start to look at them for coding standards....while the poll is going on
<Steve Howard> and a few beers ;-)
<Chris Swenson> bye Greg
<Amy Blankenship> we don't want to lose momentum
<Amy Blankenship> Let me raid my models, too <Steve Howard> yes ... give people an idea of what we are aiming for
<Greg Boudreaux> Where are we storing things again?
<Steve Howard> see ya Greg
<Amy Blankenship> authorware.com
<Greg Boudreaux> OK
<Greg Boudreaux> bye all
<Chris Swenson> It will be on Authorware.com...I'll have to get some ASP pages done up
<Christine> bye
<Chris Swenson> bye
 Well, looks like this is petering out.
<Greg Boudreaux> OK
<Amy Blankenship> Chris...you should have brought Secret Agent Brandt
 Thanks for another wonderful chat Amy. As always, it has been a pleasure.
<Chris Swenson> I'm not sure where he is tonight
<Greg Boudreaux> just post the details to the models list in a couple of days
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: I hope so...we've been at it over 2 hours!
<Chris Swenson> sounds good.
<Chris Swenson> Bye mark
<Amy Blankenship> Thanks for coming, Mark
 Yah, I know!
 l8r
<Christine> later Mark
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one
<Amy Blankenship> Wow...the duplicate Steves went away :-D
<Steve Howard> see ya Mark . Chris
<Steve Howard> they got shy
<Chris Swenson> ;-)
<Chris Swenson> So next step?
<Chris Swenson> we are setting up a poll?
<Steve Howard> yup
<Chris Swenson> k
<Chris Swenson> who's doing that?
<Amy Blankenship> I think once you are sure that we have the people on the mailing list, we should send out an introductory email to get things rolling
<Chris Swenson> Sounds good
<Amy Blankenship> I think I can do that without too much trouble
<Amy Blankenship> Do we want a pre-populated radio button/check type poll?
<Chris Swenson> Steve and Mark are there...Amy I think you subscribed too quick =+)
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Amy Blankenship> or do we want a "what do you want <fill in>" poll?
<Chris Swenson> Ummm maybe with an Other at the bottom
<Steve Howard> I think we need to give as much room for people to make their own suggestions as possible
<Chris Swenson> agreed, even if we do a radio button there needs to be a field for "comments"
<Amy Blankenship> For each radio button?
<Chris Swenson> Amy your there now
<Steve Howard> so checkboxes next to a pile of choices like windows widgets, bots, questions, menus, subroutines etc.
<Chris Swenson> I'm going to test the list
<Steve Howard> then a load of "other" space
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so maybe check boxes, plus a box with each topic
[Tue May 14 20:55:39 CDT 2002] Christine has no profile.
<Steve Howard> yup - sounds like a start ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> OK, I will see what I can do
<Amy Blankenship> Will not be tonight though
<Chris Swenson> That sounds great
<Chris Swenson> no rush, why not have the form send to the model list?
<Steve Howard> why not ? there are hours and hours left before you need to go to work :D
<Amy Blankenship> I will see if I can do that
<Steve Howard> Yeah - send it to the list for initial comment
<Chris Swenson> OK, thought it might be nice to see them as they are posted
<Amy Blankenship> but do we REALLY want a new post to the list every time someone fills out the form
<Chris Swenson> Yeah I think so that way you don't have to filter them out...don't ask for their name or anything
<Chris Swenson> nor do we have to wait to see them
<Amy Blankenship> OK, I will work on that
<Chris Swenson> Thanks
<Amy Blankenship> My dog says I better feed him now
<Amy Blankenship> BBS
<Steve Howard> OK --
<Chris Swenson> This should be fun. =+)
<Chris Swenson> I love writing models
<Steve Howard> this sounds like it could be a great plan
<Steve Howard> you are sick :D
<Christine> yeah
<Chris Swenson> course I like writing to models too...they just never respond. =+)
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Steve Howard> so *you* are the stalker ??? :-o
<Chris Swenson> I've been arrest....er called that before. ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> It figures
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Chris Swenson> just kid'n for those read'n the log ;-)
<Steve Howard> we can edit that line out
<Chris Swenson> Thanks
<Amy Blankenship> You think that line is going to make it in there? (the kid'n one)
<Amy Blankenship> <evil laugh>
<Chris Swenson> LOL
<Steve Howard> that's what I meant :D
<Chris Swenson> great
<Chris Swenson> off to a great start. =+)
<Chris Swenson> did you get my "testing" email?
<Steve Howard> Of course - gotta let folk get in touch with the real you
<Steve Howard> yup. Cannot send a reply right now
<Steve Howard> crappy ISP
<Chris Swenson> Cool thanks glad to know it works
<Amy Blankenship> Looks like Christine bowed out quietly
[Tue May 14 21:03:43 CDT 2002] Christine has no profile.
<Amy Blankenship> Speak of the devil
<Steve Howard> yeah - Mark got his too
<Christine> did I miss something?
<Chris Swenson> Well, I've got a buddy out from Kansas take'n a nap on the couch...think I'll go wake him up with a glass of water over the head...it's been fun
<Steve Howard> Christine - Amy says you are the devil
<Amy Blankenship> OK, have a good evening
<Christine> and we haven't met yet
<Amy Blankenship> She's not?????????????????
<Chris Swenson> Let's continue this on the list....ohh and yes she is. =+)
<Steve Howard> See Ya Chris
<Amy Blankenship> OK
<Christine> lol
<Steve Howard> make it a big glass
<Chris Swenson> will do. =+)
<Christine> tomorrow Chris
<Chris Swenson> Night
<Amy Blankenship> warm water around the fingers
<Steve Howard> :D
<Amy Blankenship> OK, you guys have worn me out
<Steve Howard> So did you manage to keep up Christine?
<Christine> I think so
<Steve Howard> Awe - no stamina you southern Gals
<Amy Blankenship> I am gonna scoot
[Tue May 14 21:05:37 CDT 2002] Chris Swenson: Code Monkey
<Christine> till next time then
<Amy Blankenship> thanks for coming by, Christine, Steve
<Chris Swenson> I'm back
<Amy Blankenship> What, you trying to fake us out?
<Chris Swenson> What is the topic for the next chat?
<Steve Howard> Hey Chris - what did you forget?
<Steve Howard> your coat?
<Amy Blankenship> Same as this one
<Chris Swenson> well I had a thought as I let
<Chris Swenson> OK
<Chris Swenson> same bat time same bat channel?
<Amy Blankenship> The voting now is in favor of "Open chat"
<Steve Howard> :D
<Amy Blankenship> Thursday the 23rd
<Amy Blankenship> Roughly the same time
<Chris Swenson> OK sounds good!
<Amy Blankenship> 6:00 or 6:30
<Christine> great