May 23 2002 Chat Log

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<Steve Howard> so the 5th wheel?
<Amy Blankenship> Well, Dan has volunteered
<Amy Blankenship> I don't have a problem with that
<Steve Howard> Hey - they's purdy :-)~
<Amy Blankenship> it was his idea
<Steve Howard> did he mail you?
<Lars Grogan> Wilson, right?
<Steve Howard> yup
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, Dan 6 ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Mail me what?
<Steve Howard> his volunteering?
<Steve Howard> or was I not paying attention again?
<Amy Blankenship> He sent to the AWmodels list
<Amy Blankenship> is everyone here on that list?
<Steve Howard> oops
<Glenn Bull> No, what is it?
<Ronny Elgad> AWmodels?
<Ronny Elgad> what's that?
<Amy Blankenship> Hang on, let me get the subscription details
<Ronny Elgad> ok
<Steve Howard> mail to ...
<Amy Blankenship> they were in the log, and also posted to the AWARE list
<Barbara Brown> I was out of the country, what's the models list?
<Steve Howard> aw_models@topica.com
<Tony Fortunato> Barbara: sorry ,yes in Auckland
<Amy Blankenship> thank you
<Steve Howard> we started a list to discuss the models we want to create for Authorware
<Steve Howard> just send an email to that address to subscribe
<Glenn Bull> What are some of the suggestions so far?
<Amy Blankenship> I wonder if Chris can set up a specific autoresponse when people join the list
<Steve Howard> hang on I have a URL with a summary ....
<Amy Blankenship> We are having "issues" with new people coming on, not being aware of previous discussions, and churning over the ground we had already gotten settled<Lars Grogan> Guilty as charged. :)
<Steve Howard> http://www.authorware.org.uk/aw_models/suggestions.asp
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: it is everyone who was not at the first chat, basically
[Thu May 23 18:27:57 CDT 2002] Don Haller: Westinghouse
<Amy Blankenship> I am not saying it is bad, but if we are to move forward, we can't continue to rehash the same stuff
<Amy Blankenship> Hiya Don
<Barbara Brown> OK. Thanks for the URL that'll help catch me up. Didn't mean to sidetrack the topic.
<Amy Blankenship> No, I was not meaning to imply that at all
<Don Haller> Hey all, I have been wanting to join you one of these nights - this is the first chance I have had
<Steve Howard> yeah Amy's right - if you were not at the last chat please take a moment to read that summary
<Brandt Wagner> I think the subscribe email address is actually AW_Models-Subscribe@topica.com
<Amy Blankenship> in fact, one of the things we need to discuss is how to stay on track
<Steve Howard> Well done Don :D
<Amy Blankenship> a moment? That was about 2 hours of conversation
[Thu May 23 18:29:19 CDT 2002] Glenn Bull has no profile.
<Steve Howard> no the summary is only 60-odd bullet points ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Brandt, Christine, do you know whether Chris can set up a custom "welcome to the list" mail
<Steve Howard> Hey Glenn
<Glenn Bull> Sorry, just got bumped off!?!
[Thu May 23 18:30:07 CDT 2002] Mark Henry: Rampant Lion Interactive - www.RLINTERACTIVE.com - We Make Authorware EASY!
<Amy Blankenship> Don't browse with the HTML page that launched this chat window
<Steve Howard> Hey Mark
<Christine Flack> I'm not sure
<Ronny Elgad> Hi Mark
 Hello !
<Glenn Bull> Hi Mark!
 Sorry I'm late, been a LONG day.
<Brandt Wagner> Don't know Probably
<Christine Flack> Hi Mark
<Lars Grogan> Hi Mark
<Steve Howard> Amy do you mean on track now, or more generally with this project?
<Don Haller> Hey Mark, How you doing?
<Amy Blankenship> I mean generally with the project
<Steve Howard> I think we just need a big stick and someone with the shoulders to wield it :-D
<Amy Blankenship> Sounds like you are volunteering
<Steve Howard> I could ... but you are chairperson ... or leader, or Head Honcho, or the one with the fastest scooter or something
<Steve Howard> ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Yeah, but I kinda got volunteered for that
<Amy Blankenship> I really am not sure I can stick with this project if I keep getting smacked in the head for trying to keep us all moving in the same direction
<Tony Fortunato> I would like to see a model that incorporates LMS communication, I think that may be helpful
<Amy Blankenship> and anyone who is in that position will get smacked in the head
<Steve Howard> K ... well this was the point I made earlier today -- we need someone to do the people bashing - keep us on track, as well as the project overseeing. I see the two can be different people, but Mark disagreed
 Often, and hard.
<Steve Howard> I have no doubt you are great for the project bashing :-)
<Steve Howard> as for people bashing I am less brutal that you
<Amy Blankenship> I thought I was being gentle
 I didn't say they *couldn't* be different people. My opinion was/is that since we're such a small group that it might be better if we rolled the two/three jobs into 1.
<Steve Howard> yes so did I, but somebody else did not
<Lars Grogan> Is it as much a matter of bashing as just almost setting up rules of order for the process?
 It's a bit of both
 You start with the rules, and if they don
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, that is true. But someone has to put the brakes on sometimes
<Steve Howard> well, setting rules and keeping us within them are separate tasks
 't get followed then you start bashing. Politely of course. ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> and some people don't take being braked very well
<Tony Fortunato> if we make up these models, who do we submit to? Do we submit to anyone or do we link to our own sites?
<Steve Howard> sure - no dispute. But you scare people :-)
<Amy Blankenship> Tony...we are in the process of getting web space
<Lars Grogan> I like open lists, but they generate too much randomness. What about something along the lines of moderated newsgroup concept for information exchange?
<Steve Howard> Tony Chris Swenson will have web space set up for that on Authorware.com
<Amy Blankenship> but we are in the process of hashing out standards, and deciding what models to produce
<Tony Fortunato> Ok
<Christine Flack> Chris should have it up sometime this weekend, or at least that is the plan
<Glenn Bull> Do we have any web guru's who could put together a basic "register yourself as doing this task" kind of system?
<Amy Blankenship> Glenn, first we need to decide on tasks ;-)
<Barbara Brown> So to summarize, everyone will submit models and the 4 council members will decide which get published?
<Tony Fortunato> Is there scope for 'ancillary' applications i.e. mojomole u32 SDK?
<Amy Blankenship> Barbara: the plan is to have 5 members
<Amy Blankenship> so there will always be a majority
<Steve Howard> we sort of agreed to stick to pure AW code initially
<Barbara Brown> I volunteer if you need a 5th
<Tony Fortunato> Amy: I think Steve's vote counts for 2 ;-o
<Amy Blankenship> Dan has also volunteered
<Steve Howard> Tony are you saying I am a fat git? :-)
<Amy Blankenship> not to say it is a foregone conclusion or anything
<Tony Fortunato> LOL
<Steve Howard> well I would not argue with either Barbara or Chris ... but we need only one :o
<Amy Blankenship> You mean Barbara or Dan
<Amy Blankenship> Let's look at the positives/negatives
<Steve Howard> er - yeah ;-) you know me and names ;-(
<Amy Blankenship> Barbara is a woman (more gender balance), she teaches AW, so has insight into how authors on many levels think
<Don Haller> Although I typically ride on all of you're coat tails all week long looking for answers to my never ending source of problems - I would be willing to help out any where I can.
<Steve Howard> OK, well the idea was Dan's, and he is keen ... Barbara has oodles of experience and is sensible, and a feminine influence on us testosterone-laden blokes
<Amy Blankenship> Dan thought of the idea, and has a solid intermediate understanding...understands both newbies and kind of advanced
<Amy Blankenship> Dan can't commit time right now, but knows he will be free in a few weeks
<Steve Howard> I'll bet they can both spell better than us too ;-D
<Amy Blankenship> Barbara, what does your time commitment look like?
<Barbara Brown> It's pretty free right now.
<Barbara Brown> But if Dan thought this up I don't want to usurp anyone.
<Steve Howard> and willing to sign over your soul to us?
<Amy Blankenship> There is also the point that this would likely help Dan's career, and your resume is sterling
<Barbara Brown> Sell my soul to an Englishman?
<Amy Blankenship> shh, Steve...that is for the fine print
<Amy Blankenship> he is not English
<Amy Blankenship> as he likes to remind me
<Steve Howard> well, I am Scottish, which is infinitely more honourable -D
<Barbara Brown> Sorry, I forgot.
<Lars Grogan> Is the structure of what the council will be doing such that perhaps it's four core people and a set of added fifths for different sets of models to be examined? Perhaps some folks are stronger in particular areas and that would be their contribution.
<Steve Howard> ;-)
<Tony Fortunato> yeah....that is a relief to hear Steve...
<Steve Howard> thanks Tiny :-)
<Steve Howard> oops
<Steve Howard> Tony :-0D
<Barbara Brown> Which "Dan" are we discussing?
<Steve Howard> Dan Wilson
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: the council just keeps things moving in the right direction
<Amy Blankenship> Barbara: Dan Wilson
<Barbara Brown> I don't know him but since he's not here to comment, I suggest you talk to him first, since he put his name in first.
<Tony Fortunato> Is there an estimated release date for the next version of AW?
<Amy Blankenship> There will be PLENTY of room for contributions from people not on the council
<Amy Blankenship> So, table the fifth person?
<Amy Blankenship> Decide that on the list?
<Amy Blankenship> schedule another chat?
<Steve Howard> Tony - nope - MM never gives clues
<Barbara Brown> I'll defer to Dan and if you need additional help, I'm available.
<Don Haller> Tony - I have been working with Macromedia pretty closely as of late and keep prying for info with no success.
<Lars Grogan> Has there been any kind of open call for applicants or just generalized discussion on the list?
<Steve Howard> not another chat ... Barbara or Dan ... take it to the models list?
<Lars Grogan> Wouldn't hurt to just put it out and maybe decide among those at the next chat.
 Since Dan is both absent and does not have the time to devote to the project I hereby nominate Barbara Brown to the position of 5th councilperson.
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: at the first chat there was discussion, less application than people volunteering one another or saying "I'm not interested"
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: that is a good point
<Lars Grogan> I also hereby nominate her to solve the middle east crisis, but only after the council's work is done. :)
<Amy Blankenship> But do we know WHY Dan is absent?
<Steve Howard> LOL...
<Steve Howard> Doing his homework>
<Steve Howard> ?
<Steve Howard> He is busy
<Barbara Brown> Thanks Lars, but I couldn't even get my browser working to register for your conference!
 So we have a second. Could someone please call for a vote, or should we table the decision?
<Steve Howard> Yes .. Seconded :-)
<Amy Blankenship> I think, yes, Barbara. We can keep Dan in reserve in case someone quits. That way, he can come in when his other commitments are done
<Steve Howard> Cool. Welcome Barbara, ... now can you just sign here ...
<Steve Howard> and here ...
<Steve Howard> and here ...
<Steve Howard> and ...
<Barbara Brown> Here's my blood.
<Steve Howard> ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> In blood
<Lars Grogan> Barbara...the list has spoken.
 And I'll contact you later for your blood sample and credit references...
<Steve Howard> your first born... at dawn please
<Christine Flack> welcome aboard
<Barbara Brown> Thanks everyone
<Amy Blankenship> Only if your firstborn is still a virgin
<Amy Blankenship> if not, your second
<Amy Blankenship> if no virginal kids, some random teenager off the street
<Steve Howard> for this who don't know - the council is now - Chros Swenson, Christine Flack, Barbara Brown, Amy Blankenship and Steve Howard
<Barbara Brown> What did I get myself into!
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
<Lars Grogan> Deep......
<Christine Flack> be very scared
<Barbara Brown> Chros isn't here to correct his name
<Steve Howard> how can you tell a random teenager from a normal one?
<Amy Blankenship> That is his real name he shared with the cult...I mean the council
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Christine Flack> who said they had to be normal?
<Barbara Brown> Chros or Chris?
<Amy Blankenship> Barbara...yes
<Steve Howard> no, Amy said they had to be random :-
<Amy Blankenship> oops Barbara
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: a random one will still be virginal
<Steve Howard> so a normal one is not a virgin?
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so that is handled
 I step out to get a fresh beer and I come back to talk about Barbara providing random virgins....
<Lars Grogan> Please let that be in reference to the council and not the teenager.
<Amy Blankenship> Next up: what to do so that we do not rehash the same territory, but do not exclude anyone's ideas
[Thu May 23 18:52:23 CDT 2002] Mike Bray: Mike'
<Steve Howard> keep an open record on the we ---
<Barbara Brown> Do you mean in this chat?
<Amy Blankenship> Barbara: no, on the AW_Models list
<Lars Grogan> This is where I was heading with the moderated newsgroup idea. Fixed topics of sorts for keeping on track.
<Steve Howard> I already made a start, however disjointed, plus we always have the log of the chats
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: That is a good point
<Amy Blankenship> My web host has a message board feature
<Amy Blankenship> I think I can set that up without too much hassle
<Lars Grogan> The chair can set them up for discussion after chats.
<Don Haller> Does the council have a baseline model?
<Steve Howard> can we check with Chris about moderating the list?
<Amy Blankenship> Don: what do you mean by baseline model
<Steve Howard> right now, Don, we don't. We are still chewing it over
<Christine Flack> Steve, I'll talk to him about that
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: I think the point of the discussion board is that all messages are available forever
<Amy Blankenship> BUT. Will people read them?
<Lars Grogan> That kind of falls on the moderator to point them that direction instead of letting them flood the current threads.
<Steve Howard> Lars asked about a moderated list ... I was responding
<Amy Blankenship> Good point, Lars
<Don Haller> I guess what I mean, is a single model of where the AWARE community has already identified needs and wants - so that this territory is not rehashed.
<Amy Blankenship> and I can put something to that effect in the header
<Lars Grogan> I think that may be better accepted than a list-daddy.
<Amy Blankenship> Don: we have a summary of the things that were discussed last chat and since
<Lars Grogan> ...or mommy (not to be gender exclusive here)
<Steve Howard> how about Thingy?
<Amy Blankenship> I volunteer to be a thingy
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
[Thu May 23 18:56:42 CDT 2002] Andrew Chemey has no profile.
<Don Haller> That is good - I should get up to speed on the past couple chats
<Amy Blankenship> Hi Andrew
<Steve Howard> the summary is here ... http://www.authorware.org.uk/aw_models.suggestions.asp. Don if you have not already, please read it
<Amy Blankenship> are you still in India?
<Andrew Chemey> Hello
<Don Haller> Thanks Steve.
<Steve Howard> oops ...... models/suggestions.asp
<Andrew Chemey> No - back in the States, thanks!
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so I will set up the message board tonight
<Steve Howard> did you have a good time???
<Andrew Chemey> I had an awesome time - though my body is still paying for it:)
<Andrew Chemey> I wonder what they meant, when they said "don't drink the water..."?
<Lars Grogan> Idea: Perhaps a master set of messages, posted only by the moderator that indicate open and closed topics and links to catch up on past topics.
 Since we've identified the chairperson and the 5th council member, is our next order of business the code standards?
<Steve Howard> oh dear Andrew :-( you have my sympathy
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: I am not sure the format will support that, but will look into it
<Amy Blankenship> I think name would be better
<Amy Blankenship> I am putting off the controversial stuff until more people get here
<Lars Grogan> If not, is there a page prior to reaching the message board where that can be listed?
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: I can probably set something up
<Glenn Bull> It's 45minutes in, how many more are expected?
<Barbara Brown> I read the summary but there's no mention of whether Macromedia will really put these on the CD. Have they been contacted?
<Steve Howard> is it appropriate to discuss standards here? - I know I suggested it earlier, but is it a council thing or a chat thing to beat standards to death?
<Lars Grogan> Glenn is reading my mind...
<Steve Howard> ain't that rude?
<Amy Blankenship> OK, some suggestions have been Jedi (because Delphi has a Jedi project we are sort of modeling after), LEGO (Large Ego project), Hamster (Christine? What was that?) Ham
<Amy Blankenship> any others?
[Thu May 23 19:01:44 CDT 2002] Patrick Glynn has no profile.
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Patrick
<Patrick Glynn> Hello Amy
<Steve Howard> AWsome Models? ;-)
<Lars Grogan> AW Heck (Helping Eliminate Crappy KOs)
<Amy Blankenship> LOL
<Steve Howard> Barbara, MM was sent summaries. No response
<Barbara Brown> Oh that one will make MM happy.
<Tony Fortunato> that's a good one Steve
 I'm sure MM will show more interest, once we have something concrete to show them.
<Christine Flack> here are all suggested so far: code yoda, code shepherds, authorware nuggets, jam (just authorware models)
<Brandt Wagner> why does this need a name?
<Christine Flack> hamster (helpful authorware models team effort), ant (authorware nugget team) ham (helpful authorware models)
<Amy Blankenship> Brandt: Because
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
<Brandt Wagner> How about AWX Models
<Amy Blankenship> I think it will build a better team spirit to have a good name
<Barbara Brown> Every new project seems to have a code name. I just saw one for MacIntosh called Jaguar
<Barbara Brown> My favorite name
<Amy Blankenship> Plus, if anyone wants to use this as a resume builder it is cooler than "some models some people were putting together"
<Steve Howard> I wonder why Barbara :-)
 The Pentagon actually has a program that selects code names and creates acronyms.
<Brandt Wagner> or if you must be cryptic XWA domels
<Amy Blankenship> We could name it after my favorite dog
<Steve Howard> stinky?
<Amy Blankenship> The Nada project
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: no that is my second favorite cat
<Steve Howard> LOL :-)
<Amy Blankenship> OK, this is getting out of hand
<Barbara Brown> Yes, let's get serious
<Don Haller> AMX - Authorware Models Projex ;-D
 Maybe the project name discussion could be one of the first posted to the discussion list?
<Amy Blankenship> So, why don't we all say what our favorite is, then we will count responses and make a decision
<Lars Grogan> AW Supermodels, phase names would be things like Tyra, Tyson, Crawford.
<Tony Fortunato> Mark: now that sounds spacey....
<Barbara Brown> Or AMX - Authorware Models Xtras
<Amy Blankenship> Do we want to drag this on that long?
<Steve Howard> Nah - I think anything with X is cheesy. We ain't trying o jump on the MX bandwagon
<Amy Blankenship> AY models
<Amy Blankenship> the next generation
<Amy Blankenship> ;)
<Lars Grogan> Please, no e- or -x, I beg you.
<Brandt Wagner> an favorite from my past Project Emanon
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: That supermodels is not a bad idea
<Steve Howard> Am I allowed to push my own idea? I liked Awsome Models ;-)
<Barbara Brown> I agree Amy, we're not accomplishing much. Maybe if we all just submit names, then the council can vote.
<Barbara Brown> Or at least narrow it down for a general vote.
<Andrew Chemey> It would be nice to move on...
<Amy Blankenship> That is a good idea
<Steve Howard> OK
<Amy Blankenship> OK, we are not going to reach a decision here, so put it in the "procrastinate some more" pile
<Christine Flack> we could set up a vote on the web site with a vote by date and take the majority winner
<Amy Blankenship> next thing..the standards issue
<Amy Blankenship> Good point
<Amy Blankenship> I could even set up one of my little cheesy polls ;-)
<Lars Grogan> Suggestion: Add to the message board. Post only the names you wish to submit, no discussions, and coucil or chat will decide after a week.
<Barbara Brown> Your polls aren't cheesy Amy
<Amy Blankenship> OK: one point: I am going to be on vacation next week
<Lars Grogan> Same here...two weeks. :)
 Was this approved by the counsel?
[Thu May 23 19:11:00 CDT 2002] Ron Lubensky: Melbourne
<Steve Howard> me 6
<Christine Flack> chris can put it on the site over the weekend
 Ron - whaz up!?!
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Ron. Welcome
<Steve Howard> I approved Amy's Mark ;-)
<Steve Howard> please - let's not choose the name on a future chat - it will take forever
<Amy Blankenship> Christine: I was more talking about if there is to be a chat someone else will have to host it
<Barbara Brown> I agree, let's use the "poll" method
 A poll would be more efficient
<Lars Grogan> Poll
<Christine Flack> oh
<Amy Blankenship> OK
<Amy Blankenship> I will set up the beginnings of the poll tonight
<Amy Blankenship> when I get back, I will look for more suggestions
<Amy Blankenship> Then we can set a date
[Thu May 23 19:13:47 CDT 2002] Ron Lubensky: Melbourne
<Steve Howard> standars ...
<Amy Blankenship> Hi again ron
<Steve Howard> standards... , or What are We Gonna Tackle?
<Ron Lubensky> Hi, trouble breaking in.
<Amy Blankenship> OK...How much DO we want to standardize things
<Lars Grogan> Before we start open forum on this, has there been a consensus up to now on them?
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: Not really. Just that there should be some
<Lars Grogan> Thanks.
<Steve Howard> no agreement so far Lars
 I would suggest that we set two levels of standardization: mandatory and optional
<Steve Howard> some people are vocally for thorough standardisation
<Andrew Chemey> I'm sorry - late guy, here. Standards for KO's?
 Mandatory would define a set of minimal requiremetns for a model, and optional woudl expand on those to help illustrate good programing practices in general.
<Steve Howard> OK - becuase if it is too rigid we risk stifling inginuity and defferent styles
<Amy Blankenship> I think we will squash creativity if we try to get TOO standard
<Amy Blankenship> So, what should be the minimal requirements
<Christine Flack> as a non-programmer, I would like to see things that help me learn how to think like a programmer
<Steve Howard> Andrew we agreed to avoid KOs for now... we want to provide code that users can learn from and modify to theior own ends
<Lars Grogan> I'm in the thoroughly standardized camp, for one reason: providing MM with a consistent product. This relates only to commenting, titling, and variable names.
<Amy Blankenship> So, thorough comments
 Right - the mandatory (or maybe we call it "minimal"?) would be jsut enough to make sure that the model is easy to interpret and use.
<Amy Blankenship> I would like to see color codes as standard as possible too
<Steve Howard> I'm happy so far
<Amy Blankenship> so when you see an orange icon, for example, you know that means "settings go here"
<Amy Blankenship> or a green one might mean "Readme"
<Don Haller> What do we mean by standards - Sorry for my ignorance on this issue -
<Barbara Brown> I agree with the color coding.
<Don Haller> Oh ok - I'm getting the picture now
<Lars Grogan> Amy: I agree. Is there a guideline for the depth of comments...every icon, only a dev notes at the beginning?
 I think that we woudl define icon naming, icon coloring, variable naming, variable definitions, and commenting in the mandatory/minimal spec list.
<Barbara Brown> That sound good Mark
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: I think it should be something like if you have more than a certain number of lines of code, it should be commented
<Steve Howard> Don - consistent systems of variable naming, etc so that users can get familiar with how we work and spend less time unpicking each example
<Don Haller> Got it
<Amy Blankenship> and, I have notived from msdn that they sometimes switch from commenting before what they are doing to commenting below it
<Ron Lubensky> I'm less inclined to standardise these things for all of us. I'd rather see that we specify what our standards are and stick to them inn our models.
<Amy Blankenship> We need to avoid that...it is VERY confusing
<Amy Blankenship> So, Ron, you'd say "I will be commenting if a calc gets over 10 lines of code" ;-D
<Steve Howard> Ron, here we are not talking about what make4s it easier for users to understand us. None of this should efect actual code or method
<Ron Lubensky> No, but my green icons mean this: """
<Barbara Brown> I think all calc should be commented to explain to the "newby" what is happening in that icon.
<Lars Grogan> Mark would the spec be some kind of introductory readme? Perhaps a what, when, why accounting of the model, its vars, and its process?
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: I think that that could be an aide for people who want to help, but who don't want to convert their existing code to standards
<Amy Blankenship> we already have volunteers to bring code in line
<Patrick Glynn> <
<Amy Blankenship> there is nothing that says it has to come to us 100% standard
<Steve Howard> louder Patrick ;-)
 Lars - Yes, I would think that that would be part of the mandatory/minimum profile as well.
[Thu May 23 19:21:07 CDT 2002] Patrick Glynn has no profile.
<Amy Blankenship> I also think that for the first round we should limit the complexity of list references
 The optional level would include version numbering, developer contact info, script formatting, suggested coding practices, etc.
<Amy Blankenship> My code would be pretty illegible to most people, and we need to stay away from that too
<Lars Grogan> I asked this on the list but didn't see a response. Does MM have a standard they use for the ShowMes that could serve as a baseline for this?
 I've got a friend who writes his in Vietnamese. Now talk about not being able to read variable names...
<Ron Lubensky> The show me is a std.
<Steve Howard> yes - initially even avoid lists altogehtr -- the most basic level of user does not need that
<Amy Blankenship> I don't think anyone knows
<Lars Grogan> Would be good marketing to confirm if possible.
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: I think that would be a shame
<Lars Grogan> confirm=conform
<Andrew Chemey> Yeah - the show me's standards are too keep the presentation window as small as possible:)
<Ron Lubensky> Jamil and graphic artist made the first, we all followed the example.
<Amy Blankenship> start people out with good code!
<Steve Howard> But Amy we are talking about holding teh hand of beginner users . Lists are for intermediates
<Amy Blankenship> Ok, Mark I think we can all agree: all variables, comments, and IconTitles should be in English
<Brandt Wagner> Some intermediates need their hand held too
<Amy Blankenship> Ronny can translate them to hebrew ;-)
<Ronny Elgad> no problem
<Steve Howard> we spoke of more than one level of medel ... it makes sense not to fry the marble of the greenest beginner with Lists
<Ronny Elgad> :)
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: there is nothing inherently advanced about lists
<Amy Blankenship> they are hard for beginners because no one shows them how to use them
 As for using Lists, I think that it would depend on if the end user is expected to work with the list, or if it's being used in the background (transparent) to the user.
<Steve Howard> tell that to a newbie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Steve Howard> so we say stuff the newbie, lets start on intermediates? I think not!
<Amy Blankenship> I think it is our responsibility to try to at least give users a hint of the power of lists
<Amy Blankenship> Steve, calm down
<Barbara Brown> I think you can use lists for newbies if you comment it properly.
<Amy Blankenship> it will be ok
<Amy Blankenship> Barbara, I agree
<Steve Howard> Yes. So we do that with the intermediatre-trgfetted models... the whole point is to help them progress - not scare tham with instant advanced stuff
<Lars Grogan> What if we limit the lower-level models to linear lists and not property lists with strong commenting?
 Perhaps if we built a model that demonstrated the power of lists?
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: there is nothing inherently harder about property lists
<Andrew Chemey> I would say to use lists where it makes sense - or maybe you have to make two examples (or two calc's using a decision that the user can peruse and see the difference).
<Barbara Brown> Can we have categories of models - beginner, intemediate, advanced?
<Amy Blankenship> Andrew: that is a good idea
<Amy Blankenship> so they can see how much harder it is when you don't use lists
<Steve Howard> everythiong is easy when you know how to do it. Hands up everybodyt who found lists a breeeze to pick up
<Ron Lubensky> Me.
<Amy Blankenship> me
<Andrew Chemey> I did, too.
<Glenn Bull> Me
<Steve Howard> hands up everybody who used lists in the first couple of months of using Aw
<Barbara Brown> I did except for property lists
<Glenn Bull> Me
<Ron Lubensky> didn't exist then
<Andrew Chemey> Lists weren't in the first couple months that some of us were using Authorware...
<Barbara Brown> Not me Steve. But I learned on version 2 and lists weren't the same as they are now
 Is this the line for "MeTo"?
<Lars Grogan> I'm with Barabra...unjtil I realized linear lists are like arrays and property lists were data sets.
<Amy Blankenship> How many people had good example code to look at that showed how to use lists in their first couple of months?
<Steve Howard> So eveybody who found lists a breeze had been using AW for months - even years forst?
<Barbara Brown> I did
<Barbara Brown> I'm still looking for a good model of property lists.
<Glenn Bull> It's hard to think back - when were lists introduced?
<Steve Howard> AW 4 was when lists were introduced
<Barbara Brown> I think it was ver 4
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: but if they had come across good code on the first DAY, why would they think lists were any harder than anything else
<Amy Blankenship> Lists look scary if you read the docs
<Steve Howard> so I say everybody has forgotten how difficult it is to be a newbie
<Brandt Wagner> I wish I had some examples of lists when I started. I could have used them but didnt realize they were there until it was too late
<Amy Blankenship> They are not scary if you see them used
<Ron Lubensky> Lists would be scary for anybody without a prog background
<Steve Howard> Thank you Ron
<Amy Blankenship> figuring it out for yourself IS difficult, yes
<Don Haller> Three years later - what are lists?
<Barbara Brown> I agree Ron. Same with if/then and repeat
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: I did not have a programming background
<Andrew Chemey> I liked Barbara's idea... If appropriate, give the users different ways to do things (for beginners, intermediate and/or advanced)
<Lars Grogan> Ron and Steve, I think you're on track with this one. Using lists is simple, but understanding the programming concepts behind them can baffle non-programmers.
<Ronny Elgad> I agree with don
<Glenn Bull> I think there are ways to make understanding lists far easier however
<Ronny Elgad> what are lists?
<Andrew Chemey> That way the newbies can see how to progress.
<Steve Howard> Amy you have an unusual understanding - we cannot use you as a yardstick
<Ron Lubensky> so if you want to make a distinction between models, then make it for progs and non-progs.
<Amy Blankenship> Don, Ronny: al list is a data type that lets you store more than one value in a single variable
<Ronny Elgad> yes I know
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: I think it would be a shame for people to NOT look at a model with lists because they think they can't understand it
<Ronny Elgad> but never saw why I have to use them
<Don Haller> Ah ha - See I have used them and never new we called them lists!
<Lars Grogan> OK, possible de-rail here. Is the goal of the models more to be effective or to teach? If we're to provide effective out of the box models, then let's use the power we have.
<Steve Howard> Back to my point. We agreed to have several levels of model - thoise aimed at beginners, intermediate etc. I suggest Lists are not used in beginner models.
<Brandt Wagner> I think that having a section of commented code with lists that is clearly marked as performing the same task would be helpful to most people
<Glenn Bull> Still, we are not trying to teach people programming from the ground up, surely?!?
 I don't think that the standards document should define the coding practices to the point where certain commands or data types are excluded, or preferred one over the other.
<Amy Blankenship> I think Andrew's idea of having two versions of the same code is a good one, if we can get it done
<Steve Howard> I did not suggest not using lists - only to not use them in code labelled "for beginners"
 To do so will limit the quality of models that will be submitted.
<Andrew Chemey> I agree with Mark
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: What I am trying to avoid is MyList[Temp[#property]][Temp[#indexes][X]]
<Steve Howard> but the conversation in the last chat also agreed there shoud be a progression - models that are totally dynamivc, using property lists are not beginner models
 I think that it's the job of the developer to adequately comment their code to tell a new user what's going on and how the code works, irregardless of what syntax is used.
<Amy Blankenship> and, yes, I write code like that every day
<Steve Howard> there is no reason whatsoever to limit the quality of modles - all we do is make sure we provide a progression
<Amy Blankenship> Why not just let people submit their code, and the council decides how to "rate" it
<Lars Grogan> Standardization is for the documentation, not the syntax.
 Amy - right, but you can't fix that by avoiding using the list type all together. Instead, the standards should define a minimum set of requirements that will avoid that type of script.
<Don Haller> Team - I must head out with the wife for a bit - thanks for the invite - I'll be back for another chat next time - I think you guys are moving in the right direction. Remember, that I will help as I can - Just ask - Over and Out.
<Amy Blankenship> I never suggested avoidint lists
 l8r Don.
<Lars Grogan> Bye Don
<Lars Grogan> So, aer we back in agreeance to the original set of parameters Mark listed out?
<Steve Howard> I did - but get this -- **** only for beginner code **** not for the whole project. We are going to have to differentiate beginner from intermediate and from advanced.
<Amy Blankenship> What were they again?
<Ron Lubensky> The problem with beginner models is that they only solve beginner problems. And beginnners have big problems to solve. Wouldn't it be better to provide a progression of solutions. The early ones use simple coding, then the later ones get harder but make sense in the earlier context.
<Tony Fortunato> Yeah, Im outta here....I am really interested in this model repository, it'll be really helpful.
<Steve Howard> is it that complicated???
<Steve Howard> Ron - YEs. That is what I am saying
<Tony Fortunato> see you all later, have a good trip Steve
 Steve - what, the standards definition? Or the definition of "levels" of models?
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one Tony
<Steve Howard> Thanks Tony ...
<Steve Howard> see ya
<Tony Fortunato> "good on ya"
<Brandt Wagner> I must bow out as well. Night all
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: I think the levels would be set later
<Barbara Brown> Frankly, I think we should just provide code that solves a problem or situation and tell the user what level it's on. Even the beginner can decide he's ready to use it.
<Steve Howard> yes Barbara
<Ron Lubensky> So the issue of level relates more to the problem not the syntax used to solve it.
 Good.
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, I don't think we should code to a particular leve...just look at the code and see where it is
<Lars Grogan> I think the level would pertain to how much user interaction is required to implement the model.
<Lars Grogan> User = developer
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: I disagree
<Ron Lubensky> Lars, you mean how much adjustment to it and how it's done?
 I don't think we can relate it to the level of the problem. I've seem many new users need to tackle high-end problems on their first project.
<Lars Grogan> Yes, Ron.
<Amy Blankenship> I think these are designed to be understood so they can use the concepts
<Steve Howard> we need to label simple code as beginner code, complex code as advanced code
<Steve Howard> because that is what it is
<Barbara Brown> If they are truly models, beginners should be able to use the code, even if they don't fully understand what is happening.
<Ron Lubensky> Mark, if a newbie has a hard problem, he can progress through a series of models until he reaches the level that solves the problem.
<Andrew Chemey> The problem is - asking a user to load a function that does magical things is still "complex"
<Amy Blankenship> Barbara: that is true, BUT, the code is what should determine the level
<Amy Blankenship> often more advanced code is easier to modify
<Andrew Chemey> So, the code and how to use it is what determines the complexity
 Ron - bologny. A new user wants an answer to their problem today, not in 3-4 days after looking through dozens of unrelated models while they try to learn Authorware.
<Steve Howard> Barbara ... yes ... but. Beginners also need to be able to understand what is going on. They can unsderstand a calc containing 2 variables and 2 functions, but not one with 300 lines of code, and 12 property lists
<Lars Grogan> But the value of the model is that it saves you time and helps you do things you aren't prepared for. The educational value is for the developers who want to learn more. The benefit to MM in this project would be "easy-to-use" on the side of the box, so to speak.
<Ron Lubensky> The newbie has to learn, cannnot expect miracles from the start.
<Barbara Brown> That's what I was trying to say Lars. You can use it or learn it... either way.
<Andrew Chemey> I would bet that most newbies with a project want to use code that works for them (without modifications)
<Lars Grogan> Agreed, Andrew.
<Ron Lubensky> I think this is an unreasonable expectation, but one that exists.
<Christine Flack> Andrew, I want to understand the code I am using so I can write my own
<Amy Blankenship> OK, maybe we should have 2 ratings
<Steve Howard> yes Andrew - but after the first couple of months of blind luck, anyone with sense realises the4y have to start learning for themselves
<Amy Blankenship> Ease of use, and the code behind it
<Christine Flack> how can I modify something if I don't understand what I did?
<Andrew Chemey> I'm not saying that the smart ones out there don't want to learn the code...
<Steve Howard> Yes Christine
<Amy Blankenship> Christine: Lots of code you just change an icon title here and there and away you go
<Christine Flack> yes, I do that with Chris alot
<Steve Howard> Amy you of all people hate to have a piece of code you do not understand
<Andrew Chemey> However, a lot of "newbies" were given Authorware and told to complete the project by x date
 You change Chris' title and off he goes? Awesome!
<Barbara Brown> Exactly, Andrew. I've come across several of them
<Lars Grogan> I'm probably in the minority here, but we really need to think of this in terms of what will get MM to pick these up. We can't go to them with a product that implies "usable after you learn some things". Thats not how marketing people like to think.
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, he becomes Chros, the evil coder
<Amy Blankenship> Lars: then why not have a double rating system
<Steve Howard> it happens all the time - but do we encourage the "get it done regardless" regime? Or do we encourage the "learn to win" regime?
<Amy Blankenship> One that tells what people will need to do to understand it, one that tless what they need to do to use it
<Barbara Brown> I think a model should be able to be used "as is" or with minor modifications. Otherwise, it's not reallyl a model.
<Amy Blankenship> Barabar: true. They should all be high on ease of use
<Steve Howard> And, to that end, Barbara, I thing such a model is labelled intermediate or advanced CODE
<Amy Blankenship> But often to do that, you have to employ relatively advanced code
<Lars Grogan> Barbara: otherwise, it's not a model ,it's a code sample.
<Barbara Brown> Those who want to learn, will. Those who don't will just use the tool.
<Steve Howard> because ordinarily BEGINNER code is not clever enough to earn the name "model"
<Amy Blankenship> So what were you on about with lists ;-)
<Steve Howard> simple code = beginner code = no lists
<Lars Grogan> Current Score: Amy 1; Steve 0
<Steve Howard> not complicated is it?
<Andrew Chemey> =not a model
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so you just said simple beginner code is not likely to qualify as a model
<Steve Howard> so I was taliking abnout beginner code, not models. Was anybody listening?
<Amy Blankenship> Um, this whole thing is in the context of models
<Amy Blankenship> Where were you when we announced the topic?
<Steve Howard> this whole thing is ion the context of providing code samples for
<Ron Lubensky> settle, nice, nice.
 In order to help move the discussion forward, closer to adoption of a standard, I'll volunteer to draft the document based on our recent discussions. We can then discuss each of the standards individually and debate their wording and merits.
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: Steve knows how to take me
<Barbara Brown> Instead of beginner, intermed. adv. why not classify the models as "can be used as is", "needs modification" or something like that.
<Steve Howard> ... people to use and learn from. Oh -- and models ar PART of that, not ALL of it. Or did I miss the Ban Non-Models debate
<Lars Grogan> Mark, if there is some way to help, let me know.
<Ron Lubensky> Barbara, like that.
<Andrew Chemey> OK - we didn't discuss what are the "standards" for IconTitles, Variables, etc
<Amy Blankenship> Thank you Mark, that would be very helpful
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: We are making models here. There are code samples all over the net
<Steve Howard> so this is PURE model code ... 100% ... no wigits, like we discussed last time?
 I've got reams of stuff on Icon and variable naming that I can include. Nothing too "programmy" in nature, but it will make enough sense to hold it together.
<Steve Howard> no code snippets?
<Steve Howard> no examples?
<Amy Blankenship> Widgets are not beginner code either
<Amy Blankenship> and I would think you would mostly use those as is or with a quick mod
<Steve Howard> nor are they models
<Andrew Chemey> Sorry folks - gotta bail... I look forward to seeing what is written for discussion.
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one Andrew
 By Andrew.
<Lars Grogan> Folks, my time has expired. I'll check the log for more later. G'night all.
<Steve Howard> see Ya Andrew
<Amy Blankenship> OK, have a good one
<Amy Blankenship> sorry to hear about your time
<Steve Howard> your clock died :o
<Glenn Bull> Have to go also. See you next time!
 Abandon ship! She's goin' down!
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one Glenn
<Lars Grogan> Cute folks....bye.
<Steve Howard> sinkin fast :-S
 What's the next item on the list?
<Amy Blankenship> Steve, you scared everyone
<Ronny Elgad> Nice, Il'l live you now. goes with Bondy(dog) for a wallk and to sleep it is almost morning here - See you all
<Amy Blankenship> have a good one
<Ronny Elgad> LOL
<Steve Howard> Sorry - I'll have tocut down on the gym :-()
<Steve Howard> See Ya Ronny - well done for staying aw!!!ake
<Steve Howard> oops .. awake
<Ron Lubensky> Geez, turn my back for two minutes and all's left is bubbles:-)
<Steve Howard> LOL - you saying we are all cute and round?
<Ronny Elgad> :)
<Amy Blankenship> I think the next thing on the list is what ARE the responsibilities of the council and others involved
<Christine Flack> sounds good to me
<Ron Lubensky> Sorry, came in late, what council?
 Well, to start off, I think that it should be the council's responsibility to provide the drinks for these meetings. Snacks wouldn't be bad either.
<Barbara Brown> virtual beer?
<Christine Flack> cheesy poofs?
<Barbara Brown> I just bought some Guinness
 !Cheezy Poofs!
<Steve Howard> Well I have beer :+)
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: I'll mail out some devilled eggs 3 days ahead of time
<Steve Howard> hey - poofs over here are queer :o
 Euw.
 Can you overnight those?
 ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: That would be Christine, Chris Swenson, Steve, me, and Barabara
<Steve Howard> Right now I have a pint of ESB
<Barbara Brown> ESB???
<Amy Blankenship> Mark I thought UPS ground would be good enough
<Ron Lubensky> That's a gang of five;-)
<Steve Howard> Extra Special Bitter - that's what it is called :-)
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, we wanted to be odd
<Steve Howard> Ron - yeah - like a glove
<Barbara Brown> I'm the odd one.
<Steve Howard> we are good at being odd
<Amy Blankenship> like the infamous figners cressod
<Steve Howard> ask my sister :-D
 Yes, and they were pretty odd too, even before they added Barbara Brown tonight.
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Steve Howard> You know us too well Mark
<Amy Blankenship> Probably became less odd with the addition
 No, I've just read things on bathroom walls...
<Amy Blankenship> Gees, what bathroom?
<Amy Blankenship> I need to go look
<Ron Lubensky> Well, I'm not on it , so I'm jumping ship. Let me know how you re-arrange the deck chairs:-)
<Steve Howard> WOW - are we THAT famous :o
<Amy Blankenship> That does not mean you cannot be involved
 I didn't say they were bathrooms of *quality*... ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> We are just the ones who have to do the grunt work
<Ron Lubensky> I know, but my daughter is yelling and my wife went out....
<Steve Howard> Cheers Ron, thanks for popping in
<Ron Lubensky> see ya!
<Amy Blankenship> OK, have a good one Ron
 Hey, I'm just a hanger-on hack. Feel free to stay and heckle. It's fun!
<Amy Blankenship> We'll save a chair for you
<Steve Howard> well, if you want to be on the council, we can take her off your hands :-)
<Amy Blankenship> She is too young for you <Steve Howard> Mark - you do add some sense to our deranged ramblings
<Steve Howard> how do you know what is too young?
<Amy Blankenship> Do we want to try and talk about roles and responsibilities
<Amy Blankenship> the kid is a NEWBORN for goodness sakes!
 Euwwwww.
 That's just WRONG.
<Steve Howard> Oh yeah :-) Oops :_P
<Steve Howard> I forgot
<Steve Howard> maybe a few weeks too young then
<Amy Blankenship> OK, I can see we are not going to get back on topic
 R&R - who does what?
<Steve Howard> Roles and responsibilities anyone?
<Barbara Brown> Yes please, I'm starving...no dinner yet
<Steve Howard> I wanna be the guy that forgets ...
 I'll hack together a draft of the standards doc. Who do I send it to?
<Amy Blankenship> Send it to Steve...he is posting them
<Steve Howard> Send it to the models List Mark
<Amy Blankenship> or send it to me
<Amy Blankenship> he'll be here
<Steve Howard> OK .. send it to me Mark :-)
 Ok, I'll send it to Steve. He can post it to the website once that's up, or should I just send it to the aw_models list instead?
<Steve Howard> send it to me :-)
<Amy Blankenship> I think it is one of those math things. I know it starts out 6 of one...
<Amy Blankenship> <banging ears on shoulders>
 Maybe the website is best, then post to the list that it's there and open a dialog for discussion...
<Steve Howard> LOL ;-D
<Steve Howard> OK - I can sort that out . Send to me - I post - I inform :-D
 ok
<Steve Howard> R & R anybody???
 Well, that ends my R&R.
<Amy Blankenship> I think eventually when we get space at authorware.com we need to at least provide links to all this disparate stuff
<Steve Howard> you are so smart :D
<Amy Blankenship> if not move it there
<Steve Howard> Move it there
<Steve Howard> simpler
 Now, what are you guys doin? Or would you prefer I left the room so you can discuss your secret handshakes and ordering of decoder rings in secret?
<Amy Blankenship> we are going on vacation
<Christine Flack> we get decoder rings? size 7 please
 "we"? Dang, you guys just got in office and you're already goin' on vacation. And I bet the lsit is paying for it too, huh?
 lsit=list
<Amy Blankenship> Christine: actually our secret practices involve random teenagers, not decoder rings
<Steve Howard> Yeah - out of the funds donated by you guys :-)
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, we are spending the whole treasury on beer
 You'll get a check as soon as I get some of Amy's deviled eggs.
<Christine Flack> oh yeah, I was there for that part
<Steve Howard> LOL :-D
<Steve Howard> are we keeping up?
<Amy Blankenship> Maybe I will bring some to TAAC
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: that question is a little personal
<Christine Flack> trying
<Steve Howard> Well - I guess it depends who I was asking
 Well, it's 9pm here and I've got kids that need to be tied down to their beds for the night. Now where is that duct tape?
<Amy Blankenship> All right. We are totally and irrevocably off topic
<Amy Blankenship> I am outta here
<Steve Howard> So Mark has a job. anybody else want one ...?
 Bye! Have a nice vacation!
<Steve Howard> Se ya Mark - Thanks !"!!
<Christine Flack> depends on what it is
<Amy Blankenship> I have one too...setting up a message board
<Steve Howard> OK , we will ;-D
<Barbara Brown> I want a job
<Christine Flack> bye Amy
<Steve Howard> Bye Amy
<Barbara Brown> Every one have a good night.
<Amy Blankenship> Christine: find a place to keep the teenagers Barbara is giving us
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one
<Steve Howard> :_D
<Steve Howard> :D
 Someone needs to start making a list of descriptors that will help you sort models into various categories..
<Christine Flack> they can stay with me
<Steve Howard> LOL
 Christine - you have any idea how much they EAT?
<Barbara Brown> Mark, give an example.
<Steve Howard> Like what Mark -? Question types, widget function?
<Christine Flack> I never said they could stay for free
 I think part of it is deciding the categories, then finding ways to sort models into the "most" appropriate one.
<Christine Flack> Nah
<Steve Howard> OK - that was the point of posting the summary. I'll work on tidying that up, it should create categories
<Barbara Brown> Mark are you talking about function or level
 We discussed a lot of options, from organizing models by difficulty of code, difficulty of problem solved, ease of implementation, etc..
<Steve Howard> When we go through the log, I'll pull out that info and use it to come up with a thingy that makes sense
 I think that this decision might best be done by the council, rather than by a popular vote.
<Barbara Brown> Sounds good
<Steve Howard> yeah - but we need the summary first.