<Andrew Chemey> They need beyond that to really understand AW
<Tom Adams> Andrew: totally AGREE.
<Mark Henry> Part of the problem/concern/challenge is time and money
<Tom Adams> Especially corporate users that are fairly single-minded with their projects.
<Andrew Chemey> Of course most of them only want training for a specific purpose
<Tony Fortunato> I would also like to know what the 'best practices' are
<Mark Henry> When I get a request for a Bootstrapping AW class they usually can't invest more than 3-days and x-dollars
<Steve Howard> Personalised is most beneficial if you already have a handle and have a clue about what you need to be trained for
<Pat> My company wouldn't let me spend the money for the classes. It was way out of line for our budget.
<Chris Swenson> I taught the Authorized training materials this year in Africa. It was the first time I used the Authorized stuff. I personally didn't care for it. Has anybody else taught it? Or been to a course that used it?
<Mark Henry> But they expect to learn EVERYTHING they need in that 3-day period.
<Tom Adams> Steve: which is why I'm opposed to certification...but that's another story.
<Amy Blankenship> Pat: Texas Authorware Workshop is very affordable
<Mark Henry> Chris - I've sat through the class and taught it.
<Chris Swenson> Mark...what did you think of it?
<Pat> Is that a training program?
<Amy Blankenship> TAAC is also way down this year
<Mark Henry> Pat - have you checked into TAAC and our pre and post conference classes?
<Amy Blankenship> Pat: it is a conference coming up this weekend
<Tom Adams> WORKSHOP, Amy, WORKSHOP. ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> oops
<Amy Blankenship> sorry
<Pat> Oh, yeah I saw the info but I think it's more advanced than I'm ready for yet.
<Steve Howard> Ah but Tom, you know how I think the certification should go - nothing like MCSC or whatever the ... it's called
<Amy Blankenship> I tried to run a workshop there
<Amy Blankenship> got loads of blank stares
<Mark Henry> Chris - didn't think much of it
<Steve Howard> And |EuroTAAC is just around the corner :-D
<Andrew Chemey> Unfortunately organizations purchase AW (relatively pricey product) and then don't want to spend any money on training
<Tom Adams> Amy - you're just too darn smart, I guess. ;-)
<Chris Swenson> Yeah me neither....just wanted to make sure it wasn't just me =+)
<Tony Fortunato> Steve, good question, is there going to be AW certification?
<Tom Adams> Let's hope not.
<Mark Henry> Chris - it's not just you.
<Mark Henry> The question about AW certif. has been bounced around a lot lately.
<Chris Swenson> I have very mixed feelings on certification
<Mark Henry> I did a questionnaire about it
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: they are just saying that, but no one wants to tell you your deodorant is failing
<Harry Pastore> who will offer the MM certification? Mark and Chris's outfits?
<Chris Swenson> Thanks Amy...wondered what that was. =+)
<Mark Henry> About 75% said they weren’t interested.
<Chris Swenson> No
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
<Tom Adams> Mark...Really?
<Mark Henry> Not me either.
<Amy Blankenship> Harry: right now it is being kicked around
<Mark Henry> Tom - yup, there was too much "I hate MCSE and an AW one would stink too" feeling
<Chris Swenson> The main benefit in have a certification is that it helps you stand out in a large market....Authorware isn't a large market.
<Steve Howard> but nobody wants the certification unless it holds real Kudos
<Harry Pastore> Then only Macromedia will offer it?
[Wed Jun 19 01:16:44 GMT+01:00 2002] Barbara Brown: Oops, lost in space
<Tom Adams> Steve - ABSOLUTELY
<Mark Henry> MM hasn't done it [yet].
<Steve Howard> Macromedia won't do it
<Tom Adams> nope
<Mark Henry> Actually - Authorware, Inc used to have a cert program!
<Chris Swenson> The only certification program I’ve seen and thought was worthwhile is the one Cisco offers on their routers (maybe other things...I'm only familiar with that one)
<Steve Howard> in Prehistory? WOW
<Tom Adams> ;-)
<Chris Swenson> but it's way to tough of an approach to take with AW....I'm not sure I would pass =+)
<Mark Henry> I believe MM kept it going through 2.x then dropped it
<Steve Howard> Rubbish
<Tom Adams> It's not about passing or failing - it's about WHO DETERMINES IT.
<Harry Pastore> Why did they drop it?
<Steve Howard> so who should determine it Tom?
<Mark Henry> Tom - that's a key issue and why I won't touch the idea with a 10-foot pole.
<Tom Adams> Ahhhh THAT is the question isn't it?
<Chris Swenson> Tom, good point...I don't develop quite like anybody else I know...so do I force people to work like me, or do I fail because I don't work like everybody else.
<Andrew Chemey> Tom - you brought it up, maybe you should?
<Mark Henry> It's got to be MM, otherwise it will appear self serving
<Tom Adams> Chris - that's the point.
<Tom Adams> Andrew - no way Jose.
<Amy Blankenship> ok, what do you say I add AW certification to the poll, and if enough people want to talk about it we have a chat on it
<Barbara Brown> Does MM care enough about AW to do a certification?
<Amy Blankenship> some other night
<Tom Adams> Amy - Good idea.
<Andrew Chemey> I don't think it's worth a chat
<Steve Howard> Yup- Pole it is
<Tom Adams> Oh I do.
<Chris Swenson> I think with the small AW market that the saying "the proof is in the pudding" really holds true...if you're good and can back it up you'll find work
<Mark Henry> I think it's a matter of economics. Not enough market to make it financially worthwhile.
<Tom Adams> The AWARE list discussion wasn't enough.
<Steve Howard> waddya mean you don't like Poles - you racist? ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> ok, we will put it on the poll, and when enough people want it we will chat on it
<Andrew Chemey> OK
<Mark Henry> Hey, back down there
<Mark Henry> I guess that's Amy's way of trying to get us all back on track.
<Harry Pastore> I think I would be more comfortable attending training offered by a certified teacher, not someone with a loud enough mouth
<Tom Adams> You think?
<Steve Howard> I think it is worth it - if nothing else it is an emotive subject that will generate a lot of discussion
<Barbara Brown> I think that references speak more than certification.
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: You are more astute that people give you credit for
<Tom Adams> Barb - yep.
<Mark Henry> Harry - I think part of the concern is how MM goes about "certifying" their trainers.
<Amy Blankenship> Harry: MM does certify people to do AW training
<Steve Howard> and the certified training is not the greatest solution out there
<Andrew Chemey> Does MM certify people or just an organization?
<Amy Blankenship> Harry: I think the concern is that getting certified adds a LOT to the cost of a course, for little gain
<Steve Howard> it is expensive to set up and run - so it costs more than many of the real pros for less VFM
<Chris Swenson> It's bad...very bad. Sorry if anybody here worked on putting it together but if I have to say "ok this isn't the way you would really do it" every 10 minutes then there is an issue
<Mark Henry> An individual applies, but an organization gets certified.
<Andrew Chemey> Harry - what kind of training are you looking for?
<Steve Howard> and to be certified, that organisation must have existing classroom facilities and a lot of cash
<Andrew Chemey> What have you received?
<Mark Henry> Chris - you know, I think that phrase is actually in the instructor's guide!
<Chris Swenson> It's in mine....course I probably put it there =+)
<Harry Pastore> Some intermediate training. Our multimedia dept has about 54 people, so we would have to bring someone in.
<Chris Swenson> Somebody want to email Jen?
<Amy Blankenship> BRB...I have big brown eyes reproaching me for non-payment of food
<Steve Howard> my eyes are blue before you ask
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: I think if she were online she would be here
<Steve Howard> ask
<Amy Blankenship> she did have some concerns about not being able to make it
<Chris Swenson> Ok
<Chris Swenson> just wanted to make sure she didn't forget
<Tom Adams> I just e-mailed her.
<Steve Howard> She has all that Vino Collapso to test these days ... poor thing
<Tom Adams> She's busily working on her TAW presentation.
<Chris Swenson> Harry, are you looking for scripting or something more specialized like AW and web, or AW and Databases?
<Steve Howard> Just an observation - newbies tend to have little idea of what is possible, so how do they know what training they really need?
<Harry Pastore> Most of the people say more scripting knowledge would help. We don't web deliver
[Wed Jun 19 01:27:35 GMT+01:00 2002] Jennie Thornton: Authorware Trainer
<Steve Howard> Hey Jennie
<Tom Adams> Hey Jen!
<Jennie Thornton> howdy guys.
<Mark Henry> Jen-Jen!
<Andrew Chemey> hello
<Mark Henry> Waz up gurl?
<Pat> Now that I've had the basics, I feel I know more about what I need.
<Chris Swenson> Steve, that is what things like TAW , TAAC and EuroTAAC are for...get a taste of it, then figure out what you need.
<Chris Swenson> Jen!
<Tom Adams> I told everyone you were busily working oh your TAW presentation.
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Jennie
<Amy Blankenship> Glad you could make it
<Jennie Thornton> hi all...sorry that I am late...been "business chatting"\
<Andrew Chemey> work over this?
<Steve Howard> Oh I know - they have opened my eyes to so many things - but what percentage of our number make it to any of THESE?
<Mark Henry> Sheesh, where ARE your priorities?
<Amy Blankenship> That's ok. We will just dock your pay
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
<Chris Swenson> She works with wine...where are yours. =+)
<Steve Howard> Wine Tasting, Jennie, we all know, remember? :-D
<Tom Adams> I only ever have time for TAW, it seems.
<Mark Henry> Same for me and TAAC - and that's still months away.
<Jennie Thornton> the Tom Adams Workshop will be worth it. :-)
<Tom Adams> ;-)
<Tom Adams> shhhhh
<Steve Howard> Yessiree
<Amy Blankenship> Tom: EuroTAAC is a great excuse to get some European dirt between your toes
<Steve Howard> We don't have dirt, we have soil ;-)
<Tom Adams> I'm urban. No dirt. Just concrete. ;-)
<Chris Swenson> Steve, good point I think that the conferences /workshops are great but the numbers aren't huge....I like that from a teaching /presenting standpoint but yes it would be nice if more people could benefit from them
<Mark Henry> It used to be 'EuroTrash", not it's "EuroDirt"?
<Jennie Thornton> EuroTAAC should be a priority for most of us.
<Steve Howard> Tom, Edinburgh is beautifully Urban :-)
<Tom Adams> I'm there.
<Steve Howard> Aw Mark :-( You hurt my feeling :-0
<Jennie Thornton> good...we will hold you to that tom!
<Mark Henry> Chris - so how can we get more people to the conferences?
<Tom Adams> ;-)
<Tom Adams> MAKE IT CHEAPER
<Steve Howard> Yep - I have your name on a ticket already Tom :-D
<Chris Swenson> I'm not sure Mark...I think cost is a big factor
<Jennie Thornton> I’m not sure that cheaper is the problem....
<Steve Howard> Cheaper than???
<Jennie Thornton> the question starts to turn to how do we get more people to buy aware?
<Chris Swenson> I think that the ROI has to be better perceived
<Andrew Chemey> convince decision makers that it’s as important as it is
<Steve Howard> too cheap and perceived value goes down
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, it is not just expensive to go, but then there is travel, boarding the pets, time off from work, etc
<Pat> My company said no to TAAC because of the cost vs. what I would get out of it. They said you can't learn much in short sessions like that.
<Andrew Chemey> cheaper than most specialized training
<Tom Adams> Too cheap is too cheap if folks can't have time with those that know what they're doing.
<Jennie Thornton> I really do think that for a training conference it is very cheap already.
<Amy Blankenship> MPO is that Aware can be a great front in for web enabled database apps
<Mark Henry> Pat - sounds like they've never been to a TAAC.
<Amy Blankenship> it does persistence really well
<Steve Howard> Andrew - compared to specialised training these conferences and workshop
<Steve Howard> oops
<Steve Howard> workshops are embarrassingly cheap
<Tom Adams> Yep
<Amy Blankenship> Pat: You can learn a lot in short sessions like that, if only where you need to concentrate your search for new knowledge
<Jennie Thornton> if you can only go to one conference a year (I think it is that way for most company people) why should they choose TAAC? just a question
<Pat> Not to a TAAC but to other conferences.
<Chris Swenson> One fact of life is that you'll never learn everything you need to know in a week. You have to go to these things to get excited about them....then you gotta get some books, do some reading and really get excited about it.
<Andrew Chemey> It's also about getting resources
<Mark Henry> And networking
<Andrew Chemey> people, books, list serves...
<Tom Adams> You know, we're talking $200 and 2 days vs. $600 and 4 days. The difference ain't that great.
<Jennie Thornton> networking.... I think I get the most in the form of INSPRIATION! New ideas... the free flow on knowledge.
<Tom Adams> I think that people don't have the bucks they had 3 years ago. Simple as that.
<Pat> It's only $200 for TAAC?
<Tom Adams> $200 for TAW
<Steve Howard> yes - but if you weigh up the cost of 3 days training against a 3 day conference - then weigh up the gains from each too - the conferences are way cheaper
<Jennie Thornton> 200 for TAW
<Mark Henry> 200 for TAW, 649 for TAAC
<Pat> Oh. That I probably could have sold them on.
<Andrew Chemey> knowledge is power
<Amy Blankenship> Also, it is learning who to ask: most of these people are fantastic
<Chris Swenson> Jennie, I agree seeing what other people are doing does more for me then anything else...it helps to push me in directions I didn't even know where there
<Mark Henry> I thought electricity was power?
<Barbara Brown> But the conferences are not as focused as a training course.
<Tom Adams> Steve - and I like the idea of one-on-one time with an expert.
[Wed Jun 19 01:34:28 GMT+01:00 2002] Jeff August: jaugust@columbus.rr.com
<Amy Blankenship> and if you know that someone knows about what you are struggling with, if you have met them you might be comfortable asking them
<Andrew Chemey> with knowledge you can make electricity and then sell it to other people and make a lot of money
<Mark Henry> Right, that's why we also offer pre and post conference training as well
<Tony Fortunato> the thing about theses TAAC's and workshops is that they are either going to be held in either the U.S or Europe right?
<Jennie Thornton> conferences shouldn't be about training...that is almost impossible....wetting the intellectual palette is more the focus for me.
<Mark Henry> Ah, the ENRON strategy.
<Steve Howard> Yes .... making it work is important, as the idea is great. Your idea Tom :-)
<Tony Fortunato> I can't see myself going to these from here
<Tom Adams> Joe Ganci has several students in a class this week before TAW. Way cheap for that.
<Tony Fortunato> what about something international?
<Andrew Chemey> How big of a market is it?
<Jennie Thornton> where are you Tony?
<Andrew Chemey> international?
<Tony Fortunato> New Zealand
<Steve Howard> define what you mean by international;. TAW, TAAC and EuroTAAC are all international
<Tom Adams> I'm there.
<Tom Adams> ;-)
<Tony Fortunato> you cant get further away than that
<Andrew Chemey> Outside the Europe and US- something like Australia, Japan
<Tony Fortunato> where are they held?
<Steve Howard> waddya mean - it's on your doorstep ;-)
<Jennie Thornton> there is always talk about a "Down-under aware workshop/conference, but no one ever steps up to do it.
<Chris Swenson> I'd love to see something in Australia.
<Mark Henry> I looked into the idea of expanding TAAC to Australia, but there wasn't much interest.
<Barbara Brown> I'll come down to New Zealand any time. Love it there.
<Tony Fortunato> Steve: would be nice ;-)
<Jennie Thornton> I would be there in a heartbeat...or a 14 hour flight. ;-)
<Chris Swenson> Let's just volunteer Ron and let him deal with it. =+)
<Tom Adams> After watching The Amazing Race, I've GOT to get down there.
<Steve Howard> there is the possibility of something in South Africa ... is that any good to you Tony?
<Jennie Thornton> yeah, Ron will do anything.
<Tony Fortunato> Barbara: Sure, all welcome
<Tony Fortunato> but anyway....
<Mark Henry> Ahhh! Darned thing refreshed on me.
<Chris Swenson> South Africa would be cheap
<Tony Fortunato> I think this chat room is great
<Tom Adams> What about a more expanded event...
<Tom Adams> ...to cover more eLearning apps?
<Mark Henry> Tom - Like what?
<Jennie Thornton> what do you mean tom,?
<Tony Fortunato> what about having this kind of support all the time or scheduled every week?
<Steve Howard> Our friend Bernard wanted to take us all to a Safari Park
<Amy Blankenship> Tony: Thanks :-)
[Wed Jun 19 01:38:08 GMT+01:00 2002] Jeff August: jaugust@columbus.rr.com
<Mark Henry> Bernard is a riot.
<Tony Fortunato> Steve: SA? I could watch the Rugby!
<Amy Blankenship> Tony: I do what I can
<Tom Adams> But then I guess you'd call that UCON, huh?
<Steve Howard> Yup .... and he owes us all a beer ;-)
<Tony Fortunato> Amy: you da best!
<Jennie Thornton> UCON is Rugby.
<Chris Swenson> UCON is fun...but it feels like eye candy
<Barbara Brown> How about a conference on a cruise ship.
<Tom Adams> Something like Flash Forward?
<Tony Fortunato> Steve: beer? are you talking to me?
<Jennie Thornton> but sometimes that eye candy is just the kind of inspiration that we all need.
<Amy Blankenship> I would like to see this chat room running 24-7
<Mark Henry> Now that would be cool. No company would pay for it, but it would be cool.
[Wed Jun 19 01:39:23 GMT+01:00 2002] Harry Pastore. has no profile.
<Amy Blankenship> but so far it is just during the scheduled chats
<Andrew Chemey> Were getting a little outside training - unless we are doing a 24x7 chat
<Jennie Thornton> MARK: aren't you always getting requests from previous attendees to see more examples of other's work?
<Steve Howard> No - to Mark about how Bernard is a riot and owes us all a beer. He might not know he does yet ;-)
<Tony Fortunato> Amy: that would be great, but I am sure that would require someone to be paid
<Barbara Brown> We were on a cruise and they were having a "Geek Cruise" teaching Java.
<Steve Howard> did they fill it easily?
<Amy Blankenship> Tony: I don't think so...AOL chat rooms run round the clock
<Mark Henry> Jennie - yes, I still get requests for stuff from TAAC99, 2k, 6...
<Jennie Thornton> that is the inspiration right?
<Amy Blankenship> all it takes is for a few people to start hanging out just to lounge around
<Mark Henry> Java has a MUCH larger user base than AW.
<Barbara Brown> Yeah, You're right Mark
<Tony Fortunato> Amy: Oh.....
<Tom Adams> The Hilton Garden Inn has a nice bar area between the conference rooms. ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> I think the calendar is about saturated with AOL events
<Jennie Thornton> as long as they DO NOT run out of Corona this year. ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> I find myself stretched pretty think with 3x/year
<Steve Howard> great :-) No talks to do this year, and this Texas heat makes me thirsty :+)
<Mark Henry> I've already talked to the bar - they're stocking up now.
<Tom Adams> Steve - where's that thermostat? ;-)
<Barbara Brown> I'm going to bring some cooler weather with me on Friday.
<Steve Howard> too high for me to reach right now Tom :-(
<Tom Adams> Barbara - PLEASE!!!!!
<Steve Howard> DITTO!!!!!!!!!!
<Tony Fortunato> my opinion: chat room + showmes (with audio, movies, VIDEO, flash) + listserv + published books = good training base
<Barbara Brown> Steve, this must be awful for you.
<Mark Henry> Sounds good. I'll stat working on it next week.
<Tom Adams> Don't get him started. ;-)
<Chris Swenson> Tony...I agree
<Steve Howard> yup ... although I am kinda used to it sort of ish
<Amy Blankenship> I think nothing beats getting into a session with someone who really knows his/her stuff
<Jennie Thornton> Tony: I think Aware as a community has most of that stuff.
<Tom Adams> Mark - working on what specifically?
<Mark Henry> Tony's idea...

<Chris Swenson> Jennie beat me to the rest of what I was going to say. =+)
<Jennie Thornton> except for the good training and books...we are kinda poor in that area.
<Tom Adams> what part of it?
<Amy Blankenship> I heard there was a great AW book just published :-D
<Mark Henry> Tom - I'm just kidding man. I'm swamped with work right now and Beth is recovering from surgery so she's my priority
<Tom Adams> Ah
<Steve Howard> if we had a larger user base we could support more books, and have more authors in our midst - that would be a good thing
<Barbara Brown> I don't think more books are better. Just the good ones we have like Jennie's
<Harry Pastore.> How big is the user base?
<Amy Blankenship> Jennie is worth 4 or 5 Authors in other programs ;-)
<Tom Adams> Gotta get that price down.
<Jennie Thornton> Steve: maybe a good thing.... book are out dated fast, but in a world like aware that is slow to evolve books might work....
<Tony Fortunato> Jennie: Yes they do, but I would like to see the showmes being more complete, kinda like the CBT stuff the AW community create
<Steve Howard> Nobody really knows how big it is
<Andrew Chemey> How many books have been sold, so far - do you know Jennie? Are they constantly sold out?
<Jennie Thornton> but, publishers don't want to touch aware. trust me, I know that battle.
<Tom Adams> I thought it was in the neighbourhood of 20K
<Amy Blankenship> The Showmes don't seem to keep up with the product, unfortunately
<Barbara Brown> How many have you sold Mark?
<Harry Pastore.> Doesn't Macromedia publish anything?
<Chris Swenson> I think one thing people tend to forget is that just because a book doesn't have "Authorware" in the title that it won't benefit them....I've got around 60 computer books here and only 2 of them have AW in the title...but there is a lot of good info in the rest of them that pertains to AW.
<Tony Fortunato> Amy: oh...
<Steve Howard> no they don't
<Steve Howard> Not for AW Tony ... although Jennie’s book has Macromedia in the title ;-)
<Mark Henry> Between the 5.2 and 6.0 version about 5k copies.
<Jennie Thornton> Andrew: of my books? a lot...
<Tom Adams> Wow Mark. 25% of the user base. Pretty cool.
<Harry Pastore.> That’s strange. Most software outfits trumpet the installed base
<Jennie Thornton> not sure on a count....
<Steve Howard> MM are very tight-lipped about AW user base
<Tom Adams> AW ain't most software.
<Amy Blankenship> I have learned a lot about AW programming through learning Flash and JavaScript
<Chris Swenson> Harry, it's not a product like VB or Office...it's a very specialized tool the user base I don't believe was ever to be huge...just profitable for MM
<Mark Henry> Amy - Same here with building and integrating Java and ActiveX stuff
<Harry Pastore.> Makes it a bit dicey to invest heavily if you don't know the life span?
<Chris Swenson> ever meant to be huge...can't type tonight
<Amy Blankenship> Harry: does any product ever say "we are about to discontinue this tool"?
<Amy Blankenship> I don't think so
<Amy Blankenship> you're NEVER going to know
<Mark Henry> No one knows the lifespan of anything in the software world. Aw has been around for what, 12, 13 years now and is still #1 for building CBT..
<Chris Swenson> Harry, AW has been around for a very long time and continues to make money...and has no real competition...it's not going anywhere.
<Harry Pastore.> A bit easier to discontinue if there are 35 users?
<Jennie Thornton> Amy: she is right...we will never really know... and if we do know then they might have to kill us ;-)
<Andrew Chemey> I'm betting that MM doesn't know
<Amy Blankenship> Going to hide under the bed now
<Mark Henry> Doesn't know what?
<Andrew Chemey> their user base for AW
<Jennie Thornton> you all have to remember that Macromedia used to have Aware as a tool to get their other products into large fortune 1000 companies....
<Jennie Thornton> now flash can do that on a micro level.
<Tom Adams> Jennie - don't get me started on Flash as a replacement tool for AW!!
<Andrew Chemey> Years ago - it was AW was a dead product and Director was the way to go... How ironic
<Mark Henry> Well, they can tell you how many licenses they have. How many are in use, and how many other users are using duplicate or pirated licenses who knows...
<Jennie Thornton> Tom: don't get started on flash as a replacement tool for AW.
<Tom Adams> heh heh h eh
<Tom Adams> smartie
<Steve Howard> No Puleeeeeeze
<Barbara Brown> I just got a contract from a guy to redo something he had originally done in Director. Says AW is much better.
<Mark Henry> I lost a sale 4 months ago to a company that touted Flash as the training answer. I'm negotiating with the client now to take over the project because what they want done can't be done in Flash.
<Steve Howard> for training - no doubt ... for visuals, AW is useless compared to Director
<Jennie Thornton> recently, Macromedia Training (I mean Alaire Training) has designed Certifications for DW and FLA... they are working on others....
<Chris Swenson> it's not about one tool being the end all be all.
<Barbara Brown> This isn't a training program. It's a promotional piece.
<Tom Adams> Chris: Bingo.
<Jennie Thornton> AW has been left out of that loop, "for the 2002 calendar planning year."
<Chris Swenson> Anybody with just AW in the toolbox is in trouble
<Andrew Chemey> No - certainly now a lot of people want to integrate Flash into AW, etc
<Jennie Thornton> Chris: you are right.
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so we love Authorware. Those of you who give Authorware courses, if you were taking an AW course, what questions would you ask of the trainer
<Tom Adams> What types of projects have you done?
<Tom Adams> For how long?
<Mark Henry> References of past students.
<Andrew Chemey> How do you develop recursive structures without using lists?
<Chris Swenson> Can I download samples prior to signing up?
<Harry Pastore.> I read somewhere that the AWARE list has gone from 1200 to a little over 500 in the last year. I have trouble explaining that to the accounting folks when I ask for 350,000 for training
<Jennie Thornton> I would ask my trainer how to incorporate training templates to a content database over the web.
<Tom Adams> Do you have real world experience or did you take a training course and call yourself an expert?
<Tom Adams> Andrew - Wow! You're tough.
<Chris Swenson> Tom...I met that guy once...grrr
<Mark Henry> $350k for training? Where are you going? Give me a call, I'll take care of you for a LOT less. Sheesh.
<Andrew Chemey> I bet that Steve could answer that one:)
<Jennie Thornton> Andrew: take my level 2 class ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Harry: do you think the Aware list is the only resource out there? I don't know that there are statistics on the AW newsgroup
<Harry Pastore.> That's Canadian dollars
<Steve Howard> what you read is wrong Harry - from 800 to 700 in a year maybe, but it was not 1200 a year ago ... or 2 years ago
<Barbara Brown> Harry, I have several clients who never heard of the Aware list.
<Tom Adams> But 3 years ago. Ahh that was the life. ;-)
<Chris Swenson> The new groups cycle through people all the time...there are new people there all the time.
<Harry Pastore.> I'm just citing it as a general trend.
<Andrew Chemey> A LOT of new people
<Tom Adams> I know about a dozen developers at a telecom company that didn't know about AWARE before February.
<Jennie Thornton> Chris: there don't seem to be as many newbie as there used to be.
<Amy Blankenship> Newbies tend to go to the macromedia.authorware newsgroups
<Chris Swenson> Harry...Authorware was the ONLY macromedia product to make money at MM during Q4 of last year.
<Amy Blankenship> You see way more there than on the Aware list
<Mark Henry> I think that the mm.aw newsgroup has eroded a lot of new AWARE users
<Chris Swenson> On the newsgroup Jen?
<Steve Howard> but the Aware list tends to have more advanced users hanging about
<Jennie Thornton> 2 years ago I was teaching about 800 students a year.... I think I was the busiest trainer in the USA and Europe.... now... maybe 100 a year...of course there is my retirement ;-)
<Harry Pastore.> Chris, that depends on the money they put into development.
<Chris Swenson> there are a lot of new people there all the time...I leave for a month or so come back and bam! people I don't know.
<Jennie Thornton> Newsgroup: sometimes... I pop in and out of everywhere...lurking. ;-)
<Chris Swenson> Harry, nope
<Mark Henry> same here. demand for training has really dropped off
<Chris Swenson> Only one...other's lost money
<Harry Pastore.> Hard to argue with a slope
<Jennie Thornton> Harry: gathering Moss...or something like that.
<Tom Adams> Well, Harry, do you see any alternatives?
<Chris Swenson> Are you stalking me? =+)
<Amy Blankenship> Do you think that is fewer newbies or lower training budgets after last year's crash?
<Barbara Brown> Half my clients are new Authorware users who just want me to help them do some pieces of code while they learn.
<Mark Henry> I think it's lower budgets.
<Amy Blankenship> I thought you were picking grapes
<Jennie Thornton> AMY: the slow down started before that for me.
<Jennie Thornton> I would say December 2001.
<Harry Pastore.> I'm pretty much leaning towards Flash, but we have a lot of legacy AW, hence the training need
<Steve Howard> but who was slowing down Jennie - you or they?
<Mark Henry> the training is still being done and companies are adopting AW as their tool, but they don't want to pay $2.4k per license and then another $1.xk for training
<Jennie Thornton> Amy: trimming leaves right now ;-)
<Jennie Thornton> Amy: picking is in Aug
<Steve Howard> it's not like you can take the fast pace of life any more is it Jennie? :-)~
<Amy Blankenship> I am grapeful for the information
<Jennie Thornton> For the last 2 years, my training focus has changed:
<Barbara Brown> Got to run folks. Nice chatting. See you in Texas.
<Steve Howard> See you Barbara
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one
<Tom Adams> See ya Barb!
<Steve Howard> Friday :-D
<Chris Swenson> Flash is a great tool. I love it but programming courseware in it is nowhere near as simple as AW
<Jennie Thornton> Now I teach templates and re-usable code...not jus that "play with icons" idea that we got away with in the mid-90s.
<Mark Henry> Later Barb - see you in Atlanta!
<Jennie Thornton> Friday WooHOO!
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, I think reusability is the way to go
<Steve Howard> I hope everybody plans to arrive with a thirst ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> But that may mean fewer newbies :-o
<Chris Swenson> Steve..you buy'n. =+)
<Jennie Thornton> Steve: you know me...need I say more!
<Amy Blankenship> Are you calling me a thirst?
<Steve Howard> Well - I'll buy SOME of course ;-)
<Mark Henry> Reusability is fine - we just have to find a method to teach the theory and practice that makes sense to non-programmers.
<Chris Swenson> Mark...I disagree
<Mark Henry> How so?
<Chris Swenson> Whoever said Authorware was not a programming tool is a liar...or a sales guy
<Chris Swenson> sorry that was redundant
<Steve Howard> I agree
<Jennie Thornton> Mark: I think that the base metaphor for aware allows for that teaching...organization and logic and flow.
<Tony Fortunato> but I do find myself coding....
<Jennie Thornton> the icons are still BEAUTIFUL even after all these years!
<Amy Blankenship> I think Authorware can actually be a great stepping stone to other languages
<Mark Henry> Chris - that's how its sold by MM, as a visual tool for the easy creation of CBT
<Amy Blankenship> You sound like you are a in love Jennie
<Chris Swenson> Mark...well there ya go. =+)
<Tom Adams> Jen - And with all those neat new colours. Ooooh!
<Steve Howard> yes - It annoys me that they sell it so simple - it has depths that remain hidden to most users
<Mark Henry> And the problem is that that is the expectation of the user - that it's a "no brainer".
<Chris Swenson> Tom...except the brown ech!
<Jennie Thornton> Amy: you know that I am ALL: you all know how much I love that flow... it changed my life! :-)
<Tom Adams> ;-)
<Steve Howard> oo er
<Jennie Thornton> All: I want to ask... what do you experts think that the typical newbie brings to the table?
<Chris Swenson> Jen, hopefully fresh ideas
<Jennie Thornton> Chris: I meant skill wise?
<Chris Swenson> ohh
<Amy Blankenship> Well, usually they can sort of type.
<Jennie Thornton> in the mid 90s we thought they we all soft-skill IDS types...what now?
<Chris Swenson> umm I think imagination is a skill, hopefully my best one.
<Mark Henry> Jennie - each one is totally different, I've met so many really cool people with great ideas and concepts just waiting to be built. Others don't have any concept of what they want to do.
<Chris Swenson> Logic I guess would be the big one.
<Amy Blankenship> I don't know that you can classify all newbies beyond that
<Tony Fortunato> Jen: hopefully they know logic flow
<Tony Fortunato> if...then....else
<Jennie Thornton> hopefully...... WHO is using this tool?
<Chris Swenson> A lot of non-logical people. =+)
<Tony Fortunato> teachers?(that’s a guess)
<Jennie Thornton> Chris: I agree.... ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Tony: I don't think it is all that obvious to all newbies. Often, the problem is not figuring out how to do what you want to do, but what you want to do
<Tom Adams> Amy - except in corporate situations.
<Mark Henry> teachers, trainers, programmers, technical writers, artists, the list goes on...
<Chris Swenson> I often tell people is that the first thing you have to realize is that it takes around 20 steps to make a PB&J sandwich
<Jennie Thornton> aware is still $3000... so that rules out the 13 year olds building web pages.... I think AW is still a corporate tool. and I think that trainers still come to it more than programmers.
<Amy Blankenship> Tom, I answer a LOT of questions from corporate users who have no idea what steps need to happen to solve their problem
<Tom Adams> Right - what steps.
<Tom Adams> Not what they want to do.
<Mark Henry> Amy - that's a big one for me.
<Mark Henry> I get around 20-25 e-mails a week from people wanting to know "how do I build a CBT from scratch"
<Amy Blankenship> Well, if you can't describe what you want to do in steps you have no chance of making it happen
<Tony Fortunato> Jen: you can get AW6 through warezing and there is the educational version
<Jennie Thornton> the tool is the last step....most clients don't know what a script or a spec is.
<Amy Blankenship> Tony: you can't sell things made with the educational version
<Jennie Thornton> Mark: you and I must talk to the same people ;-)
<Tony Fortunato> Amy: Oops.... >_<
<Mark Henry> Jennie - I think we probably do ;-)
<Chris Swenson> Jennie, I agree I run into this sometimes when I tell a client that it might be better to consider AW and they say nope has to be flash (or some other technology) I ask them why and they say "I don't know just does"
<Steve Howard> Yeah but Tony AWARE does not have the glitz factor of Flash or the simplicity of Dreamweaver - so nobody really bothers pirating it - certainly not to the degree that other tools are copied
<Tom Adams> Chris: yep.
<Mark Henry> It's perception - Flash is the "kewl" new tool that does everything!
<Jennie Thornton> about 99% of my retirement has become "technology Solution Consulting"
<Tom Adams> "kewl" AAAAHHH! There’s that word again!
<Steve Howard> I ran into "do it in lash 'coz" two years ago ... what a pain
<Jennie Thornton> Chris: how are your flash skills? ;-)
<Chris Swenson> I run into the same thing when I spec out a "real app" and I suggest Delphi and they say VB or C++ and I ask why and they say Microsoft...never mind that Delphi is a far better product...
<Tom Adams> Non-word
<Chris Swenson> Jen, They are actually pretty good.
<Jennie Thornton> good..... :-) mine too. ;-)
<Steve Howard> teasers
<Mark Henry> Mine's getting better
<Chris Swenson> And it's a tool that is in my toolbox....I rarely have just one tool open
<Jennie Thornton> flash is a tool that I am opening more and more.
<Amy Blankenship> I have a thing for Notepad and Homesite :-D
<Chris Swenson> I love notepad
<Chris Swenson> =+)
<Amy Blankenship> OK, so are we going to discuss "where to get Flash training" now :-D
<Tom Adams> claw hammers
<Steve Howard> I have a thing for Mexican food - does that count?
<Tom Adams> great things
<Jennie Thornton> Amy: yeah but you are from Texas so there is no accounting for taste (remember, I am from New Mex. ;-)
<Chris Swenson> yes Steve.
<Tony Fortunato> does anyone use vi? :-(
<Chris Swenson> On UNIX =+)
<Chris Swenson> along time ago.
<Steve Howard> pervert
<Jennie Thornton> Amy: Flash training is doing great!
<Tony Fortunato> Chris: in a galaxy far, far away?
<Jennie Thornton> I just got registered as a flash trainer and I really like a lot of the materials that MM has made for the product.
<Chris Swenson> yeah something like that...college, when I thought Perl was the way to go
<Amy Blankenship> Christine, you awake?
<Tom Adams> We've got some lurkers here...
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Tom Adams> Jeff...Harry...
<Christine Flack> :0) Yes, I'm here
<Tony Fortunato> Chris: WHAT DO YOU MEAN THOUGHT?!!!!!
<Steve Howard> 5 ... 4 .... 3.... 2....1...
<Steve Howard> WOW .. fast ;-)
<Jennie Thornton> Long time lurker...first time chatter.... but I need another beer...brb.
<Chris Swenson> ;-)
<Chris Swenson> Oh no
<Chris Swenson> I've opened another can of worms.=+)
<Amy Blankenship> ew
<Steve Howard> she does have two havds Chris
<Steve Howard> hands
<Amy Blankenship> ew, we
<Tony Fortunato> 't'is ok Chris

***** We lost a couple of sentences here due to a technical glitch

<Mark Henry> Problem is, once you get that "certified" label you HAVE to use their material.
<Harry Pastore.> Otherwise, some poseur hard sells a bill of goods, and I have to answer for it
<Jennie Thornton> TOM: no, but my name will be in their data base and I will have to use the Allen interaction trading materials
<Tom Adams> Ah. Sounds like a deal.
<Chris Swenson> We've talked about the Authorized training a bit...it's horrid
<Jennie Thornton> and we ALL know about the "approve" training materials.
<Mark Henry> Is there any word about the training material being updated for 6?
<Steve Howard> Hey Jennie your spelling is getting better :-)
<Jennie Thornton> Mark: Allen re did them.
<Jennie Thornton> they are still the same.
<Chris Swenson> Mark...does it matter...it'll still probably be horrid unless they rewrite them from scratch
<Jennie Thornton> Steve: nope....I can't type that is why I never chat.
<Mark Henry> Did they? I tried to sell Christian on letting me do it, but Allen was hard-wired for the contract a long time ago.
<Tom Adams> Allen. Hmm. Guess who's template I had to completely re-do?
<Amy Blankenship> Maybe what MM needs it to get some of the training "stars" like Joe, Mark, and Chris to get together and rewrite the materials
<Steve Howard> you fake it well - like me
<Jennie Thornton> Mark: me to.... Robert Milton got a VERY small contract to work on them....he said the result was embarrassing... MM shelved it.
<Amy Blankenship> Oops, and Jennie...my fingers overran my thought
<Jennie Thornton> Amy: that's ok.... like mark said, they came to us. in fact I almost did it for free.... but.....
<Mark Henry> Jennie and I gave input to the tutorial for 6.0 - I can’t speak for Jen, but most of my suggestions either weren’t added or were only partially included.
<Jennie Thornton> Amy: Robert (my teacher) was available and they paid him to do an outline based on the old Kellogg book... it went badly. :-(
<Tom Adams> Sounds like my experience with MM's UCON Advisory Board.
<Steve Howard> it's personal, Mark, don't worry about it ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> The thing is, the tutorial files with 6 kind of suck. Not really a good example of much but media synchronization
<Mark Henry> Hey, I'm 33. I'm used to it by now.
<Jennie Thornton> All: what you have to remember is that MM training is brand new....
<Harry Pastore.> Well, thanks for the insight into the AW training community. Are there any Flash trainers you can recommend?
<Chris Swenson> ouch
<Jennie Thornton> they used to be the Allair people..... they are a profit centre now with their own trainers.
<Mark Henry> Dang!
<Mark Henry> Hey, we lost Harry...
<Jennie Thornton> Harry: Dan Carr is the best in the country.... I’ll be there in about 24 months ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Harry: I hear Jennie does Flash training :-D
<Jennie Thornton> Harry: www.dancarrdesigns.com
<Tom Adams> I think Harry left us.
<Chris Swenson> Guess he'll see it in the log.
<Tom Adams> Poor guy.
<Tom Adams> Lots of money to spend and nowhere to spend it.
<Jennie Thornton> Harry: ok now that you are off the list...go bring me a beer. ;-0
<Steve Howard> we scared him
<Amy Blankenship> This chat mainly seems to be AW trainers now :-D
<Mark Henry> Sounds like it.
<Chris Swenson> Ok let's change the focus a bit then
<Jennie Thornton> let's talk about "silly student questions" ;-)
<Chris Swenson> =+)
<Tom Adams> I'll sit back and listen to the real trainers.
<Jennie Thornton> Tom: Now THAT is scary!
<Steve Howard> Trainers? Oooo - I better go ..
<Steve Howard> ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> I haven't actually ever taken a formal course
<Mark Henry> What do you mean I have to organize my material first? Why doesn't AW do it for me?
<Chris Swenson> Where?!?!
<Amy Blankenship> I would love to see how it is done
<Steve Howard> me too
<Jennie Thornton> I have to wear a formal? high heels too?
<Jennie Thornton> I love outfits! ;-)
<Chris Swenson> I've never taken a formal class.. nor have I given one for that matter.
<Steve Howard> Jennie - you are so Girlie!!!!!! :-O
<Amy Blankenship> Yes. Push-up bra...must give students something to leer at
<Tom Adams> What does the Find thingy do?
<Chris Swenson> I don't believe in books in the class room
<Jennie Thornton> Lip stick developer ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> LOL
<Tom Adams> OK, well, time is money. Gotta go spend some money with my time.
<Steve Howard> lipstick and stilettos?
<Jennie Thornton> "why do I have to push on the post-it note button to save?"
<Tom Adams> See y'all Friday.
<Chris Swenson> Tom.. spend it on me if you get bored
<Tom Adams> Well, most of y'all anyway.
<Chris Swenson> See ya
<Jennie Thornton> bye darlin'!
<Steve Howard> See Ya Tom .... save us a sammich or something :-)
<Mark Henry> Later Tom, good luck with TAW.
<Tony Fortunato> Jen: What about CBT development itself? Not just putting it into AW, what about storyboarding, impact of graphics, video, LMS etc?
<Jennie Thornton> Tony: I used to do a class just like that...
<Tony Fortunato> Jen: ohhhh
<Jennie Thornton> Tony: I think that because of that class...I was able to make a name for myself amongst the other AW trainers
<Jennie Thornton> I called it "Making CBT happen"
<Jennie Thornton> it was everything.....
<Mark Henry> Many students just don't understand the amount of preparation and additional skills you need to produce good quality CBT - that's with any tool, not just AW.
<Steve Howard> Smoke and mirrors :-D
<Tony Fortunato> Jen: sounds tricky
<Chris Swenson> Mark good point
<Jennie Thornton> ISD overview, how to organize and create basic media and tracking and everything ....
<Chris Swenson> That's why I don't like doing level 1 stuff
<Mark Henry> I used to offer that style of course, but the demand for a "general" course has really dropped off to next to nothing.
<Jennie Thornton> about 2 days out of 5 in aware....really I just showed the students how to use a template that I had pre-built ;-)
<Chris Swenson> I expect the students to know the basics so I don't have to spend time doing it, I just love the advanced stuff
<Amy Blankenship> That's kind of what the Authorware Models project is about
<Jennie Thornton> Mark: you are right...people want to get dirty in AW now... I like that style better....
<Jennie Thornton> I think that the "Student on the 2002" is more technology savvy than we used to have.
<Amy Blankenship> No talking dirty in the chat room, please
<Chris Swenson> Amy since when? =+)
<Amy Blankenship> er
<Amy Blankenship> 3 minutes ago
<Chris Swenson> k just wanted to clear that up
<Amy Blankenship> ban's up in 5 minutes
<Steve Howard> it is more expected that you have to learn to code, not just drag icons
<Steve Howard> Cool }:-)
<Amy Blankenship> I think the web has done a lot to foster that
<Chris Swenson> Steve once people buy the tool I agree.. up until that point they are clueless
<Mark Henry> They be more tech savvy, but their also more used to automated tools that don't need much input or coding to accomplish a set goal.
<Jennie Thornton> Steve: it is also expected that you can do things outside of AW.
<Jennie Thornton> Steve: in let's say 1992 you could put everything on a laser disk and call it quits....
<Steve Howard> Yes .... people expect to be able to integrate Flash, Databases, ASP ... etc
<Jennie Thornton> then this whole "web thing...
<Jennie Thornton> then dynamic content.....
<Amy Blankenship> I think that expectation is more of a recent thing...the past year or so
<Mark Henry> Yes, and it's getting more prevalent.
<Jennie Thornton> AW is still doing what it always did, but the demands on us are much larger.
<Chris Swenson> Amy I agree, it's been a more recent thing
<Steve Howard> When I started in 1997 my employers were still sending stuff out on a floppy disc with a laser disc for video :-)
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, but part of that is our own fault "sure we can do that with AW"
<Mark Henry> The user's expectations for automation in the development tool are extremely high - almost ridiculously so considering the amount of fine control they also want.
<Chris Swenson> but you can do it in AW =+)
<Steve Howard> but that is a GOOD thing for us and for AW -- the more folk push AW the better it gets, the better its user base is and the more respect the tool has
<Jennie Thornton> well darlings it has been great, but I have to go yoga for an hour or so.... :-) thanks for the invite this was a lot less intimidating that I thought it would be. :-)
<Amy Blankenship> AW 6 is a kickin' release
<Mark Henry> Yes you can - but a "newbie" that doesn't have a background in programming can't with what they get in the box. See what I mean?
<Amy Blankenship> Our engineers really listened
<Chris Swenson> Yeah it's a double edged sword, people want it to do more so more is expected from us the experts and trainers.
<Amy Blankenship> will be interesting to see what AW becomes
<Chris Swenson> Jen, it's pretty relaxed here as always.
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one Jennie
<Jennie Thornton> cool.
<Steve Howard> so we have to be a step or 12 ahead - do you want to stand still Chris? ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> see you in Dallas
<Jennie Thornton> byeeeeeeeeeeeee
<Tony Fortunato> bye Jen
<Chris Swenson> bye
<Steve Howard> See you Friday Jennie :-)
<Mark Henry> Jen.... bye love, see you in Atlanta!
<Chris Swenson> Steve...god yes even for a week. let me rest please
<Jennie Thornton> you buy the first, I’ll buy the second. ;-)
<Tony Fortunato> Ok, can I ask my OT questions?
<Steve Howard> OK :-)
<Chris Swenson> fire away
<Steve Howard> Go for it Tony
<Mark Henry> Sounds good. Go ahead Tony..
<Amy Blankenship> Take a vacation Chris. A cruise or something
<Chris Swenson> Amy...what a fine idea =+)
<Steve Howard> Or go to Dallas, Chris - I hear it's nice this time of year
<Amy Blankenship> Thank you. I'd like to say I thought of it myself
<Tony Fortunato> I know AW can handle lists, can it handle multidimensional lists?
<Steve Howard> Yes
<Chris Swenson> I'm going to Dallas =+)
<Amy Blankenship> Absolutely
<Chris Swenson> Yep
<Amy Blankenship> without question
<Mark Henry> Next question.
<Steve Howard> 32kx10 levels Tony
<Chris Swenson> Tony go to Authorware.com and get my list presentation from last year's TAW.
<Amy Blankenship> it can even handle property lists of liner lists of property lists of linear lists
<Amy Blankenship> or vice versa
<Tony Fortunato> can you create a dynamic list
<Steve Howard> or lists of property lists of lists of lists of property lists of lists
<Tony Fortunato> ?
<Steve Howard> yes
<Chris Swenson> Tony yes
<Tony Fortunato> as in the size of the list
<Steve Howard> Lists are dynamic by their nature
<Amy Blankenship> yes
<Tony Fortunato> ok
<Chris Swenson> all lists are dynamic in AW...no need to resize as you go either
<Amy Blankenship> It is not like VB where you have to constantly redimension it
<Chris Swenson> I wish.
<Tony Fortunato> OK
<Steve Howard> you are sick Chris
<Amy Blankenship> and, you can refer to a list (even a sublist) by reference
<Chris Swenson> sorry structure boy was at it again.
<Chris Swenson> =+)
<Tony Fortunato> what about tree structures?
<Amy Blankenship> which can be really cool
<Amy Blankenship> You can do that too
<Steve Howard> tell him to leave it alone - it'll break
<Tony Fortunato> can you do pointer manipulation?
<Chris Swenson> Tony like a b-tree or a tree view
<Chris Swenson> ?
<Tony Fortunato> yes
<Chris Swenson> the first one?
<Amy Blankenship> I usually have a separate list that keeps track of where I am in the tree
<Tony Fortunato> b-tree
<Chris Swenson> you have to fake it with the lists, but it's doable
<Tony Fortunato> OK
<Amy Blankenship> Is that like where you get honey?
<Chris Swenson> As far as pointers go check the memtools.u32
<Tony Fortunato> OK
<Chris Swenson> Amy yes...and you can call me pooh...but not in public
<Chris Swenson> ==)
<Steve Howard> yeuck
<Amy Blankenship> But you don't need to touch the memory yourself to use AW lists
<Amy Blankenship> OK, I'll remember that
<Tony Fortunato> Well, that’s it, is this information about lists on the MM site?
<Amy Blankenship> You guys bringing our absentee chatter to TAW?
<Steve Howard> should be in the help files
<Chris Swenson> No couldn't talk her into it. =+)
<Steve Howard> plus Chris's presentation
<Chris Swenson> somebody has to hold down the fort
<Amy Blankenship> The list info is accurate, but does not really point you much in the direction of how to use it practically
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, hear it rides light with you and Joe away
<Steve Howard> does it float Chris?
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
<Chris Swenson> =+)
<Tony Fortunato> well, that’s me, I'm going to give these lists a go
<Tony Fortunato> thanks for your help everyone
<Amy Blankenship> No prob
<Mark Henry> Have fun Tony
<Steve Howard> go on - you won't regret it
<Chris Swenson> yes you should...once you master lists your in good shape for scripting.
<Chris Swenson> bye
<Tony Fortunato> "Good on ya"
<Steve Howard> See ya Tony
<Amy Blankenship> L8r