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<Joe Ganci> on RL interactive's site, there is a write up of 508 as one of their services <Joe Ganci> do we know what they offer by way of service, though? <Steve Howard> No idea [Sat Jun 29 15:14:51 GMT+01:00 2002] Laura Glynn has no profile. <Joe Ganci> it writes up the law, but doesn't explain what they do...has mark never talked about it here? <Amy> Hope it does not have anything to do with bad taste ;-) <Amy> Hi, Laura <Joe Ganci> good morning, Laura <Amy> No, he has not <Joe Ganci> ok <Chris Swenson> Hello <Laura Glynn> Good Morning <Amy> David, our breath is growing more and more bated <David> it is <Amy> Ya gonna ask, or am I gonna have to get medieval? <David> ok go for it <Amy> No, you are the one with the question <Amy> YOU go for it ;-) <David> what r the main elements used in 508 compliancy <Steve Howard> Poor Amy - her marble is confused <Joe Ganci> the idea behind it is... <Amy> Oops...sorry...that was Joe threatening to ask :-D <Joe Ganci> to allow accessibility to those with hearing, seeing, and mobility problems <Joe Ganci> what a lot of people don't know is that there is also a section 504 that is older <Joe Ganci> and for that matter a section 501 <Joe Ganci> those sections concentrated on the USER, not the SYSTEM <Joe Ganci> meaning that agencies had to accommodate a disabled user <Amy> Have there been any decisions from the courts about what is and is not 508 compliant? <Steve Howard> so nobody talks about 502, 503, 505, 506 or 507? <Chris Swenson> I've not heard of any court cases yet <David> what r all those <Amy> Not in polite company <Joe Ganci> they didn't have to do anything special on all their systems or software, just the user <Chris Swenson> which surprises me actually <Steve Howard> David : I was kidding :-) <Joe Ganci> which meant that there were too much resentment and too many problems, hence 508 <Joe Ganci> no court cases yet <Joe Ganci> all those other 500 sections just say "see next paragraph" (kidding) <Steve Howard> So 501 and 504 meant that wheelchair access and screen readers had to be provided? (in essence) <Joe Ganci> that's what Chris and I were told by gov't reps - the courts will decide in the end <Joe Ganci> Steve - yes <Chris Swenson> if they were needed. <Joe Ganci> and anything else to accommodate the disabled user <Steve Howard> I figures. I was just breaking it down to nuts. Left out the bolts ;-) <Amy> Joe, what do you find to be the hardest thing about doing 508 work with Authorware <Laura Glynn> Here is a question from the tired CA person. Can AW actually be 508 Compliant? <Joe Ganci> well, it ain't too hard after Chris wrote the U32s he did for us! <David> Joe, have u created some type of checklist for the required elements <Chris Swenson> I'd have to say working with the client to identify what is actually needed <Steve Howard> We should all have a Chris <Joe Ganci> the clients don't really know what they want usually <Amy> Let's clone him <Joe Ganci> No, you cannot clone Chris - he's one of a kind and will stay that way <Steve Howard> one in each AW box <Joe Ganci> nyah nyah nyah I gots to him first <Amy> So, 508 won't be the same for all clients, Chris? <Joe Ganci> there are levels of 508 <Steve Howard> Yeah you say that now you have him :-( <David> what r those levels <Chris Swenson> We've talked about that before...it scares me. I woke up and the 6th day was on hbo (left the tv on) I've had enough bad clone stories for one day <Joe Ganci> some agencies in order to ensure compliancy go all out <Chris Swenson> no each client can be different <Amy> Chris: remember that mosquito that bit you at TAW? <Amy> already in the incubator <David> it was radioactive <Steve Howard> poor Chris <Chris Swenson> which is why the courts could be involved more heavily in the future <Amy> What do the different levels mean? I was not aware of this <Chris Swenson> great so I'll have the power of a mosquito....how do I design a costume around that =+) <Steve Howard> Poor Laura must be wondering what kind of crazies she is dealing with here <Amy> how does a client decide what level is needed <David> good question <Chris Swenson> for example if you are building a course on disarming a bomb, you <Chris Swenson> err hit enter <Chris Swenson> sorry <Laura Glynn> I had some idea already from reading the aware list :) <Joe Ganci> can't remember offhand, looking it up <Chris Swenson> if you are designing a course on disarming a bomb, the client may say being blind disqualifies a person from holding that job <Chris Swenson> but a hearing impaired person may be able to hold that job <Amy> Chris, no the genetic sample the "mosquito" took is now percolating in my incubator <Chris Swenson> so you do not have to design for the blind, if being blind means that a person can not hold that job <Joe Ganci> although that isn't stopped our dept. of transportation client from wanting a driver's ed course that blind people can use <Joe Ganci> we'll be working on that driver's ed course next month <Chris Swenson> yes can't wait for that one to start <Laura Glynn> like the braille on a drive-up ATM <David> ok so from what you’re saying depending on the objective depends what elements of 508 must be used <Amy> Yes, we try to be 608 compliant, designing training for software that isn't even close <Amy> oops 508 <Steve Howard> Sounds like fun - can I, er, test drive it :-) <Joe Ganci> Laura - right <Joe Ganci> they told us that while blind people don't drive, the managers of a driver's ed facility may be blind and need to evaluate the course <Joe Ganci> seems like a stretch to me! <David> yeah I would this person know someone ran over the cones <Joe Ganci> but if they want it, we'll do it <Chris Swenson> Another issue is that maybe a supervisor may need to evaluate a course but never actually takes it. in which case it goes back to a need it all <Chris Swenson> it's a bit fuzzy <Steve Howard> Did you ask how many blind managers they have? <Laura Glynn> so far we have been trying to deal with 508 web sites..not any training yet..web sites are tricky enough <Chris Swenson> I should read before I type...I guess we were already discussing management =+) <Joe Ganci> yes, it means we have to have 508 compliancy involved in every aspect of training <Joe Ganci> in the input and the output <Amy> I'd think web sites would just work, since they automagically support tabbing and screen readers <Steve Howard> you mean like certificates and reports too? <Chris Swenson> When I built the first version of our tools I tested them by sitting in the dark with my eyes closes and my hands behind my back. <Laura Glynn> Amy-there is a lot to making a site compliant <Chris Swenson> after that I plugged my ears and turned the lights back on, did it again <Joe Ganci> Amy, there are many degrees of vision impairment. 508 tries to accommodate varying degrees <David> interesting beta testing Chris <Chris Swenson> then plugged my ears, closed my eyes and did use my hands <Steve Howard> Chris : so your stuff works by voice recognition too? <Joe Ganci> so for example a person with glaucoma should be able to read the screen without the need for a screen reader <Amy> Why without the need for a screen reader? <Amy> isn't that what they are for? <Joe Ganci> just so you all know, Chris tests ALL our courseware that way, even that which isn't 508 - I keep having to talk with him about it <Chris Swenson> yeah it works, you have to think in extremes of hearing, vision and mobility <Joe Ganci> you need to have text on the screen contrast well with the background without blending in as a lot of web sites do <Steve Howard> that boy is crazy, you should get him to se a shrink <Chris Swenson> yes we have voice recognition....in fact that is getting an upgrade soon. I'm adding lexicon support <Amy> Joe, I heard that blindfold is just his way of napping undetected <Chris Swenson> which is basically a custom dictionary for voice recognition <Chris Swenson> Amy...shh <Chris Swenson> =_) <Chris Swenson> =-) <Joe Ganci> Chris works about 22 hours a day, much as I used to. I’m down to 20 <Joe Ganci> getting old, I guess <Amy> Yes, a lot of websites go for pretty, subtle effects that may be lost on a vision impaired person...and make the site unreadable <Joe Ganci> that's exactly right, Amy <Steve Howard> designer’s license? <Chris Swenson> One thing that is very difficult to do is make a course / web site / application that is both visually exciting and accessible <Steve Howard> are there any basic rules? <Laura Glynn> it's hard to be pretty and compliant <Chris Swenson> one way of doing so is separating content from delivery and them having two ways of displaying that content <Amy> That is a good point, does 508 mean that designers have to design for the small percentage of the population that has vision problems <Laura Glynn> as a web site that is! :) <Joe Ganci> Laura -LOL <Amy> Well, this early in the morning I am not wearing makeup <Chris Swenson> Amy no, an option screen at the start of a course is usually the way to go allow a user to turn things on and off. <Joe Ganci> we aim for both pretty and compliant <Steve Howard> nor am I <Amy> so I am neither ;-) <Joe Ganci> in a web site that is <Joe Ganci> and training <Chris Swenson> of course that screen must be fully compliant <Laura Glynn> we have a site that we made 2 versions of; graphic and text <Joe Ganci> we aim to have our 508 courseware be like me - pretty and compliant <Joe Ganci> anyway... <Steve Howard> pretty and complaint? <Chris Swenson> ohh that's what were doing is it. =+) <Amy> seems like that is a whole lot of extra work <Chris Swenson> That's why templates and databases play into what we do so much <Joe Ganci> that's right <Joe Ganci> can't find the web site I once saw that shows the breakdown. I should have bookmarked it and stolen from it <Chris Swenson> it is more work but you can minimize it some....of course building a 508 course usually cost more but that's a given [Sat Jun 29 15:36:32 GMT+01:00 2002] David Brunswick has no profile. <Steve Howard> ere - borrowed <Amy> What do you guys think about MS Agent as a way of bringing voice to your applications without the overhead of recordings, but more personality than straight TTS? <Joe Ganci> welcome back, David. we missed you <Joe Ganci> you were gone so long <David Brunswick> thank you <David Brunswick> user error <Amy> It's David Brunswick! What a surprise <Chris Swenson> Amy it depends on the client and the audience [Sat Jun 29 15:37:39 GMT+01:00 2002] David Brunswick has no profile. <Steve Howard> absolutely - in the UK I have yet to see Agent used - we tend to think it is cheesy and annoying as hell <Joe Ganci> ms agent doesn't always work because one of the things that 508 requires is that you don't detract the user to different parts of the screen <Amy> Chris: oddly, we seem not to get more staff for things like 508 compliance <Amy> I am surprised again!! <Joe Ganci> a lot of it becomes common sense once you realize what the end user needs <Chris Swenson> I'm not sure that the agent has been updated to use SAPI 5.x yet...so I'm trying to not use it <Amy> Steve: if all you see is Clippy, the it will seem cheesy <David Brunswick> does using MS Agent cover the use of most elements <Laura Glynn> Joe-were you thinking of the Bobbi site? <Joe Ganci> thanks, Laura...do you have the url? <Chris Swenson> That's a good site <Joe Ganci> if the user is supposed to be looking at an exercise, and here's the agent over to the right saying "hey look at me!" it's not good <Steve Howard> Amy we have seen more than clippy - they are all still a PAI <Chris Swenson> The agent has its place <Laura Glynn> just a sec <David Brunswick> ok it can be distracting instead of helping <Chris Swenson> I find it nice to use for moving around the screen and pointing things out. It's also nice for children's software <Amy> Yes, but if you use the Agent right, you can draw attention to the areas of the screen you want the user to focus on <Chris Swenson> if it's not over used that is <Amy> It works great on top of WinCtrls and activeX, which is why I like it <Steve Howard> Yeah but that is the US perception, not the UK one ;-) <Chris Swenson> I used it once a couple of years ago as a help mode. <Joe Ganci> good point, Amy <Joe Ganci> yes, I’m not trying to say the agent should never be used <Chris Swenson> the user would click the help button, and the agent would pop up and explain the screen then go away <David Brunswick> just use it accordingly <Joe Ganci> but it can be distracting for those users who can only see three centimetres of the screen at any given time because of vision problems <Amy> That is a good use <Laura Glynn> Here is another good one www.w3c.org/WAI/ <Amy> Joe, that is a good point <Joe Ganci> you often see those people. they move their heads around a lot when looking at a computer screen to scan the screen <Chris Swenson> Which is why there should be an option screen at the first of a course. The user should be allowed to turn on and off the features that they want <Joe Ganci> found it at http://bobby.cast.org/bobby/html/en/index.jsp <Laura Glynn> was just typing that Joe :) <David Brunswick> here is a informative site I had found on 508 http://www.nadn.navy.mil/Masters/Section508/elements.htm <Joe Ganci> I’m fast! ;-) <Laura Glynn> too fast for me <Joe Ganci> Chris makes an excellent point (as usual) <Laura Glynn> if I can't cut and paste I'm lost <Joe Ganci> right at the start, there needs to be an option as to which disability options are needed <Joe Ganci> and of course that screen needs to be FULLY 508 compliant <Amy> So you don't think the whole thing should just work, regardless of your disability? <Chris Swenson> Amy do you mean all out all the time? <Joe Ganci> Amy, rephrase your question? <Amy> I mean, you don't think that it is a good idea to create a course that is 508 compliant on all disabilities (for instance if you are developing in a short time frame?) <Chris Swenson> Amy, tough one. <Chris Swenson> it depends on the client and what is really needed. <Laura Glynn> It is harder to make is accessible, though <Amy> Is it? I'd think that creating 5 or 6 different versions (whether they are wrapped into a single package or not) would be tougher <Chris Swenson> There are a lot of things that we haven't talked about that make it tougher. <Joe Ganci> system was acting up, I'm back <Amy> We missed you <Laura Glynn> accessible and instructionally sound..that's tough <Steve Howard> what have we not talked about then Chris? <Joe Ganci> best to start with an approach that allows those options to be turned on and off <Joe Ganci> short time frames really don't cut it with 508 <Chris Swenson> such as do you test with a Braille keyboard, or a breath input device. <Amy> Tell that to the Department of Labor <Steve Howard> So we can justify those development dollars? ;-) <Joe Ganci> we do ;-) <Amy> a breath input device? <David Brunswick> ok what if you develop a training piece that adheres to the needed 508 elements for say a deaf person then there is a change of employee that is blind you will need to redo the training correct <Chris Swenson> yep like a mouse/keyboard only you blow into it <Amy> Isn't that stretching this a bit far? <Chris Swenson> some people need it <Joe Ganci> hi, David - that's what 504 was for. 508 says any disability should be accommodated, built in <Steve Howard> David the plan should be that you build for both first time <Chris Swenson> or a single finger input device. <Joe Ganci> it's a LOT easier for websites than training <Laura Glynn> true. web sites can just be for reading not interactive <David Brunswick> ok that is what I was wondering so develop for all disabilities in mind regardless of deadline <Amy> David: in the private sector, that isn't an issue. <Steve Howard> It seems to me that there are things built into browsers that mean most web sites are half-way compliant without trying to do anything <Laura Glynn> I'm just confused about how you can create training in AW that is compliant? <David Brunswick> ok I'm curious <Chris Swenson> one nice thing is that most of those devices use drivers that work directly with windows...but you still may have to test in your course....or at least design around it <Amy> for instance, where you will be working you may not need to worry about it <Amy> Seems to me that the main 508 thing you have to worry about with a website is high contrast and proper alt tags <David Brunswick> I've already raised the question to my future employer since there are a lot of govt. contracts <Amy> Yes, if they get the government contract now, you may need to worry about it <David Brunswick> ok <Steve Howard> Joe I got sight of the 508 sample code that you presented at EuroTAAC - is that going to be available as a model sometime? <Joe Ganci> Amy, also for web sites, if you play sounds, you have to make sure that there is equivalent text on the screen <Joe Ganci> for the moment, Steve, we're keeping that as a competitive edge for ourselves <Joe Ganci> but we may in the future <Amy> I think he means the stuff you presented from Ron <Chris Swenson> Ron's stuff will be eventually, but it only goes so far. <Steve Howard> K - something like that might have been a useful start for the industry. You should sell it to MM ;-) <Chris Swenson> our stuff only goes so far as well though.... <Steve Howard> You are right Amy <Joe Ganci> I’m surprised Ron isn't here. I think it's late evening there <Amy> It seems like there is only so far you CAN go <Chris Swenson> there is ALOT of technology that could be implemented in this area <Joe Ganci> our stuff will go farther in a couple of weeks <Amy> I mean, there are a LOT of possible disabilities and degrees of disabilities <Chris Swenson> yep <Chris Swenson> and yep <Amy> The reality is that even government agencies need to get training out in some sort of timely manner <Amy> or there is no point in doing it <Chris Swenson> Amy, very true <Joe Ganci> hey.... <Joe Ganci> maybe we should do that! ;-) <Steve Howard> a lot further how Joe? Or is that a big secret? <Chris Swenson> which is why I think good models, plug-ins, and clear development materials for the developers is needed <Steve Howard> Yes Chris, without doubt <Amy> You can't say to the 90% of perfectly ok people that need training "you have to wait an extra 2 years to get it so that the 3% of people with really rare disabilities can be accommodated" <Joe Ganci> I’ll let Chris talk to that since he's making the changes. I offered a lot of suggestions, but I’m not sure in the end what he'll be implementing now. is it all of it, Chris? <Chris Swenson> speech recognition is the big update <Joe Ganci> Amy the disabilities are apparently more prevalent than any of us thought <Chris Swenson> it's working now, but I want to make it much better. <Steve Howard> why is that? Because few of us work with disabled people? <Chris Swenson> and more mobility issues will be addressed. <Amy> You've already said short time frames don't cut it with 508. I think models and plugins can do a lot, but they can't make something that is really complex completely go away <Chris Swenson> no of course it won't make it go away, but it can help to make is simpler. <Laura Glynn> I think that the disabilities have always been there..computers are just making training easier for anyone to access <Chris Swenson> 90% of what we do is the same thing, content and testing. <Joe Ganci> that's the idea, amy <Laura Glynn> hmm. I think I need more coffee <Joe Ganci> that's right, a lot of what is done in training is very consistent <Chris Swenson> that should be easy enough to build based on models and such. The interactive things as always are usually custom <Joe Ganci> make it work for one thing and it will work for most of the rest <Joe Ganci> now, if you're not Michael Allen where every screen needs to be a very different and very complex interaction, it doesn't take that long to implement 508 <Joe Ganci> as long as it's designed in from the start and the right tools are used <Chris Swenson> Joe, that's the trick <Amy> Damn! You noticed I'm not Michael Allen <Amy> How did you guess? <Joe Ganci> neither am I, Amy! ;-) <Laura Glynn> Joe- Do you have samples of 508 compliant training that you have done? (That we can see without having to be shot afterward? :) ) <Joe Ganci> though I like and respect the guy <Joe Ganci> we're putting together a demo in the next couple of weeks, maybe 3 or 4 <Joe Ganci> holiday next week here <Amy> There can be only one! <Steve Howard> So let me ramble for a moment ... the main thing that is needed to help us that is not native to AW is the screen reader? Is that right? Because other things are stuff like keypresses, visual design? Or is there something else? <Joe Ganci> there's more, Steve <Joe Ganci> for instance... <Chris Swenson> I think I ended up with around 20 or so mobility functions in our tools <Amy> Has anyone tried the option of changing the html in the page of a web-enabled AW piece to enable a screen reader to view it <Chris Swenson> Things that could of been done in AW with around 50 lines of code I've got down to one. <Amy> I've kicked that idea around a few times <Joe Ganci> screen readers don't read aw text natively, that's true <Steve Howard> Mr u32 strikes again :-) <Amy> Chris needs a theme song <Chris Swenson> do I get a cape and mask with that name <Chris Swenson> I’ve got a theme <Chris Swenson> song <Joe Ganci> but there is also the need for reading text off the screen to place in a separate window <Joe Ganci> for someone to read, print, etc. in a larger font <Steve Howard> Ohhhhhhhhhh - I didn't realise that <Amy> But doesn't that magnifier doohickey do it already? <Joe Ganci> there is also the need for global navigation that works anywhere, which is fine, you can do that yourself except that... <Laura Glynn> How do you make the interactions accessible? <Joe Ganci> a zoom window should be available that will "follow" where the cursor is and the cursor should automatically move from button to hot spot to button on the screen as you use the global navigation keyboard scheme <Chris Swenson> yes but not as elegantly as it could...I've also built in a screen zoom in to one of the u32s that can be controlled from AW <Joe Ganci> interactions like multiple choice and text entry are not difficult if you build the tools we spoke of <Joe Ganci> even hot spots and such can be accessed that way <Chris Swenson> Laura, some interactions you can't make accessible. You have to identify those upfront and determine if there is another way of teaching the objective and make it accessible <Joe Ganci> the drag/drop has to be usable, but clearly that requires a different model <Steve Howard> So have you got ways to force a tab order in AW too? <Joe Ganci> this usually involves a click and stick approach (so called) <Amy> For keypresses, are there any rules on how many keys to use? <Chris Swenson> Steve, yes <Joe Ganci> where you "click" the object using the keyboard, then click its destination, and have it go there <Steve Howard> Cool :-) AW native, or did you U32 it? <Joe Ganci> instead of dragging it <Amy> Steve: I have an example of that on my website <Chris Swenson> a bit of both <Laura Glynn> drag and drop for the blind?? <Joe Ganci> yes <Joe Ganci> for the blind <Chris Swenson> I've got a series of functions; setfocusresponse, setfocusdisplay, and setfocusrect <Steve Howard> What an odd concept :-) <Laura Glynn> There is so much to consider..it's 8am on a Saturday..my brain is going to explode..it's going to look like a Monty Python movie.. :) <Steve Howard> So how do these things work time-wise? I mean if I tried to do a course blindfold it would take me an age but I presume a blind person would work more quickly <Joe Ganci> we take a lot for granted, we seeing, hearing, easily navigating through mouse people <Chris Swenson> yeah it's a fun learning curve <Amy> Laura, just think of drag and drop as matching <Joe Ganci> actually, timing is another aspect <Steve Howard> Mr Grossburger I presume? <Joe Ganci> you really can't have "timed" examples and exercises <Amy> don't call me a mouse person! <Laura Glynn> ok..so if you have drag and drop and you are building for a blind person you must make 2 versions of the question? <Laura Glynn> at least <Chris Swenson> Or one with options <Amy> Our users pretty much insist that if they don't do anything that we do it for them <Amy> There is no way to do that except to time it <Steve Howard> I was not really meaning timed exercises - more that training depts will allocate, say, an hour for a training course - do they need to allocate the same or significantly more for deaf or blind employees for instance? <Chris Swenson> Amy, then that screen is not 508 compliant <Laura Glynn> just one more wafer... <Steve Howard> "... little wafer thin mint" ;-) <Chris Swenson> Steve, it depends on the disability I'd think. in general nothing should be timed. again it's a "decision for the courts" which is scary <Laura Glynn> lol Steve <Chris Swenson> get me a bucket! <Laura Glynn> that's how my head is going to look in a minute <Joe Ganci> wafer? <Chris Swenson> Monty python joke <Joe Ganci> oh <Laura Glynn> you have to be a sicko to understand :) <Chris Swenson> Joe, I'll lone you the DVD on Monday <Chris Swenson> =+) <Steve Howard> Yeah Chris I think you still misunderstand me - I am not talking about the training course caring about time - I mean does it in fact take longer for the disabled user to complete the course? From the standpoint of time=money I think it is an important question <Joe Ganci> I used to be into Monty python, until the INCIDENT <Joe Ganci> then I needed psychotherapy and electric shock therapy <Amy> Chris: tell that to the Department of Labor when they ask for that <Joe Ganci> and now I’ve forgotten most of it <Steve Howard> Joe : It's from The Meaning Of Life <Chris Swenson> Steve, no I understood. There should be no time restraints on a 508 course of any kind. <Steve Howard> When do you get the therapy Joe? ;-) <Chris Swenson> which I know is not realistic <Joe Ganci> yes, it takes longer for the disabled person to complete the course <Joe Ganci> usually <Chris Swenson> Joe, may take longer. <Joe Ganci> may take longer <Joe Ganci> depends <Joe Ganci> Chris, I need to come over to see your Jesus <Joe Ganci> lizards <Laura Glynn> well, it has been a pleasure..wish that I could meet y'all at TAAC..or better yet EuroTAAC! <Amy> um, what? <Chris Swenson> some time next week, I'm cleaning this weekend <Joe Ganci> and borrow a bunch of your DVDs ;-) <Laura Glynn> would love to see your demo Joe <Joe Ganci> Laura, look for another event to be announced this week <Amy> Laura, there is another of each coming up soon <Laura Glynn> yeah but only 1 of can attend <Laura Glynn> of us that is <Amy> Maybe TAW next year <Amy> cheap thrills ;-) <Joe Ganci> maybe <Joe Ganci> have a good weekend, Laura <Chris Swenson> bye Laura <Amy> Have a good one <Laura Glynn> ooh another event..sounds interesting <David Brunswick> good bye all and enjoy your weekend <Laura Glynn> thanks all. Have a great weekend! <Amy> You bugging out too? <Steve Howard> See ya :-) Have fun <Laura Glynn> thanks Amy..great chat <David Brunswick> I have domestic duties <Amy> oo er <Steve Howard> You get to mow the lawn? <Joe Ganci> you too, David??? <Joe Ganci> ok <David Brunswick> yes <Joe Ganci> have a good one, David <Chris Swenson> take care <David Brunswick> you too take care y'all <Joe Ganci> bye <Steve Howard> David - be rash :-) <Amy> Have fun <Amy> Note, don't get a rash ;-) <Steve Howard> Oh, er yeah :-O <Chris Swenson> avoid the rash