[Tue Oct 15 18:36:05 CDT 2002] Aaron: MM TS
<Amy Blankenship> Hi Aaron
<Amy Blankenship> is the MM tech support guy?
<Aaron> Hi Amy,
<Amy Blankenship> oh, duh
<Amy Blankenship> look at the profile ;)
<Aaron> I guess I'm a little early
<Aaron> Yep, that's me
<Amy Blankenship> It often takes a while to warm up
<Amy Blankenship> Especially on week nights as people get home from work
<Amy Blankenship> Are you in SF?
<Aaron> I'm still working - so will be slow on response maybe
<Aaron> Yep - SF
<Amy Blankenship> Is ok
<Aaron> :-)
[Tue Oct 15 18:39:27 CDT 2002] Chuck has no profile.
[Tue Oct 15 18:39:32 CDT 2002] Glenn Bull has no profile.
[Tue Oct 15 18:39:39 CDT 2002] Mike Baker has no profile.
<Glenn Bull> Hi Guys!
<Amy Blankenship> Hi chuck, hi mike
<Amy Blankenship> I Glenn
<Mike Baker> Hello
<Chuck> hello
<Amy Blankenship> Mike, I guess you already know Aaron
<Aaron> We haven't met in person
<Mike Baker> I do?
<Amy Blankenship> the tech support guy :-)
<Aaron> I'm in Macromedia Tech Support
<Mike Baker> Ahhh, We never met
<Mike Baker> Where do you work out of?
<Aaron> do you work remotely?
<Mike Baker> Yeah, I'm in Kansas
<Chuck> Mike, we met before. We shared a ride from the airport at T2K
<Amy Blankenship> OK, I think we have enough people that we can start getting into the meat of this
<Mike Baker> Jamil's not here. We should wait
<Amy Blankenship> The only built in tracking I ever use is AllCorrectMatched
<Aaron> I'm in SF, Mike
<Amy Blankenship> Oh, ok...did not know he was planning to come :-). I know how important his family time is
<Mike Baker> He asked for it didn't he (at least that's what you said in the email)
<Amy Blankenship> Steve should be here any minute
[Tue Oct 15 18:43:10 CDT 2002] Steve Howard: supping on a mug of tea
<Amy Blankenship> Speak of the devil
<Steve Howard> hey people :-)
<Amy Blankenship> hey devil
<Amy Blankenship> :-)
<Mike Baker> Hope we get to meet next time I'm out there, Aaron
<Steve Howard> you can relax now, I'm here ;-)
<Steve Howard> Hey Angel :D
<Steve Howard> so Aaron - welcome to the Borg :D
<Aaron> Yeah - glad to be here. Thanks!
[Tue Oct 15 18:46:51 CDT 2002] Chris Swenson has no profile.
<Amy Blankenship> Mike...things quiet now that 6.5 is out?
<Steve Howard> Now you get to find out what sort of sensible people you are dealing with
<Steve Howard> or is that crazy fools ... :-)
<Mike Baker> Nope! Got lots of other things to do.... :-)
<Amy Blankenship> Chris...you should go out and change your profile to "boy genius"
<Steve Howard> Hey Chris :D
<Chris Swenson> Hey
<Amy Blankenship> How is your new partnership going?
<Glenn Bull> Hi Chris & Steve
<Chris Swenson> glad to know I've still got ya all fooled. =+)
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, you're over 25 now ;-)
<Mike Baker> We're both busy
<Steve Howard> So that means he is beyond even "youth" genius
<Steve Howard> Hey Glenn
<Chris Swenson> ya ya old man now I got it. very funny =+)
<Chris Swenson> What's the topic tonight?
<Aaron> AW's built-in tracking
<Steve Howard> Built-in tracking
<Chris Swenson> ahh
<Chris Swenson> I don't think I've ever used it. =+)
<Mike Baker> Amy mentioned that she uses AllCorrectMatched.
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, that's kind of the reason we're here
<Amy Blankenship> Jamil wants to know why not
<Mike Baker> But I'll just bet that you only use it to tell when an interaction is done, right?
<Steve Howard> You mean aside form it doesn't do what we want?
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: But when I use it, I tend to be a bit subversive, since I use it for rollovers
[Tue Oct 15 18:49:42 CDT 2002] Ron Lubensky: always accessible
<Steve Howard> Me too :D
<Steve Howard> Oo er - Hey Ron
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, oh accessible one
<Glenn Bull> Hi Ron
<Chris Swenson> I use bits and pieces of it, but I've never let AW do all of my tracking
<Ron Lubensky> yo!
<Amy Blankenship> What time is it down under?
<Mike Baker> I use it to tell when people have done all the things I want them to. Not to keep score
<Ron Lubensky> 9:30am Wed
<Glenn Bull> 12:40pm New Zealand
<Steve Howard> 12:40 am U <yawn> K
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, it's not very good for things like taking quizzes and questions over
<Amy Blankenship> or for letting people change their minds
<Mike Baker> So what does it do wrong?
<Ron Lubensky> There are functions and vars in there I've never ever used.
<Amy Blankenship> Well, for one thing, if you "select" an answer, then "deselect" it, it can count as both a correct choice and a wrong choice
<Steve Howard> counts 2 responses for a (?) keypress - or is it a button when you use a keypress alt
<Chuck> what about data driven courses?? the entire quiz/test is with one interaction. The built in variables are useless, correct?
<Steve Howard> Yup ...
<Glenn Bull> Yeah.
<Chris Swenson> are we discussing all the variables in the "interaction" category?
<Ron Lubensky> It's troublesome to "reset" the tracking vars for an interaction.
<Amy Blankenship> and when a newbie sets up a quiz, trying to use TotalCorrect, etc., that can REALLY mess things up if they let people retake the quiz
<Mike Baker> OK so far - Fix the thing with the Alt-keypress. A key that trips a button should be only one item
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: those are part and parcel of the built in tracking
<Chris Swenson> Ok just wanted an idea of what we were discussing
<Ron Lubensky> Often responses controlled by Active If, so counting of responses gets out of whack.
<Glenn Bull> Generally speaking I do all my own tracking. I do use some of the variables every now and again, but often to supplement my own system.
<Mike Baker> Allow programmable reset of the "count
<Steve Howard> yes
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: there needs to be some way to score a question so that if you check, for instance, a check box button, then uncheck it, that it either counts as a wrong choice or a right choice...not once for each time you clicked it
<Steve Howard> have a Q know if it is revisited
<Amy Blankenship> It needs to be easier to compare a question against its judge status
<Ron Lubensky> make the interaction vars assignable
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: AllCorrectMatched resets....it seems the other vars could reset as easily
[Tue Oct 15 18:55:13 CDT 2002] Apurva has no profile.
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, apu
<Apurva> Hi
<Amy Blankenship> welcome
<Glenn Bull> Hi Apurva
<Steve Howard> Hi Apurva
[Tue Oct 15 18:55:32 CDT 2002] Mike Baker has no profile.
<Apurva> what is the topic of the chat
<Apurva> hi all
[Tue Oct 15 18:55:43 CDT 2002] Anthony Ferralli: Developer & Trainer
<Amy Blankenship> Apu: built in tracking
<Chuck> i haven't used the built-ins in a while, but wasn't there an issue with setting the KEY field on a button?
<Apurva> oh ok. thanks
[Tue Oct 15 18:56:10 CDT 2002] Mike Baker has no profile.
<Mike Baker> Do I have to leave your web-page open Amy?
<Steve Howard> Yeah I mentioned that already Chuck :D
<Chuck> doubling the correctmatched?
<Amy Blankenship> I see the chief advantage of the built in tracking that it ought to make interfacing with an LMS easier
<Chuck> sorry, missed it
<Steve Howard> Mike - don't browse away
<Steve Howard> we all get an electric shock when you do :O
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: yes, it is just like looking at an AW course OnTop
<Mike Baker> Then you really ought to get rid of the 5 minute pop-up ad
<Apurva> Hi Mike
<Chris Swenson> if the built in tracking matched up with the AICC object model then I might use them
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: That costs me $30/ every 3 months. I hate these people, and don't want to pay them ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> I just haven't gotten around to changing to an all aw solution
<Steve Howard> Tell us more Chris
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: I get around it by setting my browser to prompt for cookies
<Amy Blankenship> then don't close the first prompt
<Ron Lubensky> Chris: AICC or scorm?
<Steve Howard> I don't get any .. I'm on XP
<Chris Swenson> Ron...using AICC with Scorm
<Chris Swenson> I'm faking it now with a property list that models the AICC model
<Steve Howard> Chris isn't that an oxymoron?
<Mike Baker> Using AICC to report where and how? through ASP, JSP, PHP, .NET?
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: no name calling, please :p
<Ron Lubensky> There are two levels, what's needed to control the interaction and what needs to be recorded.
<Steve Howard> :p
<Chris Swenson> The data model with SCORM is AICC
<Chris Swenson> Mike, right now I'm using a modified javascript LMS API wrapper
<Chris Swenson> back end is what ever
<Mike Baker> So how is AW going to "match up"? You mean terminology?
<Ron Lubensky> Chris: are you looking for a built-in bridge between AW vars and the API?
<Chris Swenson> Mike, yes
<Chris Swenson> I'd like to be able to set things like cmi.score.raw (think that's right) with out having to have my own variable...it's not a big deal cause I've code for that now.
<Mike Baker> Ahh, I was thinking more about how it "works" rather than what things are called. :-)
<Ron Lubensky> Ahh, take the CMI stuff into the new world.
<Steve Howard> does this tie in with what I asked for at TAAC? Native JavaScript API calls?
<Chris Swenson> getting it work is pretty simple...I've got a set of 6.5 functions that I'll be sharing soon.
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: you are so giving
<Chris Swenson> If I'm working with an LMS I need to think like the LMS, the built in stuff with AW doesn't let me think that way
<Steve Howard> he never said who he was sharing *with* :-)
<Chris Swenson> =+)
<Chris Swenson> I've showing them at a user group next month...they will be up shortly after that
<Steve Howard> Cool
<Steve Howard> So you want to be able to bypass the need to communicate via the web page?
<Chris Swenson> No just the internal tracking. If I'm looking at one of the cmi.core values I don't want to think about how to translate the built in stuff so that it "fits" that variable.
<Steve Howard> coz right now if I want to access the Javascript API the only way I found so far is to call JS functions in the web page that address the API
<Chris Swenson> Again not a big deal because I've got my own tracking scheme set up, but if I had to change the way Aw tracked stuff I'd say make it more like how an LMS tracks stuff
<Amy Blankenship> Also, make it more like how a DEVELOPER tracks stuff
<Steve Howard> :D
<Amy Blankenship> Usually when people ask about how to make the built-in tracking do X, I tell them throw the built in tracking out the window and track it yourself
<Mike Baker> AICC has it's terminology, SIF has there own, does SCORM define what they want tracked and do they have their own terminology?
<Ron Lubensky> Amy: agreed.
<Amy Blankenship> and that is a shame
<Chris Swenson> Steve, that's going to have to be that way for awhile. The LMS's api object will have to accessed from both their backend database and the applcation that is calling the functions. http works well for that
<Anthony Ferralli> SCORM is still evolving
<Chris Swenson> Mike it's AICC
<Chris Swenson> LMSGetValue('cmi.core.lesson_status') is a valid SCORM call
<Mike Baker> You mean the scorm model is AICC compliant or AICC friendly.
<Chris Swenson> compliant
<Steve Howard> but if AW had native JS functionality, you could remove a layer
<Chris Swenson> Steve...maybe
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: but how would you set it up to allow for changes in future SCORM standards?
<Steve Howard> I always like removing layers - it simplifies things ;-)
<Chris Swenson> I've got a OBP html template that adds the functions in. Removing that layer isn't a big deal to me cause I don't see it anyways. =+)
[Tue Oct 15 19:10:00 CDT 2002] Mike Bray: A bit Alfred-Hitchcock-like these days
<Mike Baker> You could write an XTRA and do that couldn't you? Oh, wait... someone did already didn't they?
<Ron Lubensky> Chris, so the problem is in having to assemble the CMI data in the app in the first place from the interaction vars?
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Mike. Been taking lots of showers?
<Chris Swenson> there will be a SCORM web service API soon...that will remove the layer
<Chris Swenson> Ron - bingo
<Mike Bray> Showers? Wha...?? Am I stinking up the place???
<Amy Blankenship> no...the infamous psycho scene
<Steve Howard> And that construction is a BIG pain
<Mike Bray> ;-)
<Chris Swenson> The second issue would be picking what data model you want. AICC, SIF...others?
<Glenn Bull> If we're talking about tracking things the way a developer tracks stuff, then it sounds like it would be good to build database support into AW's tracking system.
<Ron Lubensky> I still think there are two layers. Some interaction vars for app control and a subset also for recording.
<Steve Howard> like local and global Ron?
<Mike Baker> I never even made it past tracking the stuff within Authorware since the TotalCorrect, TotalWrong, PercentCorrect were all... uh... incorrect :-)
[Tue Oct 15 19:13:24 CDT 2002] Fred Campbell: Corporate System Administrator
<Amy Blankenship> Glenn....I am more referring to actually putting your fingers on the info you want without having to create your own variables
<Chris Swenson> Ron, I agree. I will want to know what the choice count is, but may not need to track that to anything. I may need that internally to make the app work correctly
<Steve Howard> exactly Mike
<Amy Blankenship> Hi Fred
<Steve Howard> Hi Fred
<Fred Campbell> Hello
<Mike Bray> I'm with Mike (Baker) on that ... I was never able to implement tracking using AW's internal tracking variables for much the same reason
<Mike Baker> So all the talk about making them AICC friendly doesn't mean much if we can't get them right inside AW to begin with.
<Steve Howard> Correct
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: that's what I mean by making the built in tracking work like a DEVELOPER thinks
<Chris Swenson> Mike - yes. We'd have to change the way Aw tracks things
<Glenn Bull> Amy - yes, but when it comes down to it, how many of us are using our own tracking systems with a database alongside it? I would imagine most
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: I think you're going to have to create new variables
<Ron Lubensky> And we're lumbered with legacy support in AW too....
<Mike Baker> So how do we go about that
<Amy Blankenship> because there are going to be folks that use the old
<Chris Swenson> Well I know how I did it...I took a week and modeled the AICC object model as a Authorware prop list.
<Steve Howard> what do you mean Mike? The obvious answer is list needs and built them ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Glenn: I see tracking and recording as two separate things
<Mike Baker> OK, then let's list the needs
<Steve Howard> we need a system that does not break when a question is retaken
<Steve Howard> we need an easy way to ID interactions to track and those to ignore
<Mike Baker> Glenn, you're right. Tracking and recording are two separate things. tracking should be separate so that different recording models can be used
<Glenn Bull> To me they are one in the same.
<Amy Blankenship> Each question needs to overwrite previous responses to the question
<Ron Lubensky> ability to reset all tracking and recording vars manually.
<Mike Baker> How about code re-use?
<Steve Howard> Sometimes that may not be appropriate - I have had clients who want every attempt logged
<Amy Blankenship> and each response needs to count once and only once to the interaction
<Glenn Bull> Mike - good point.
[Tue Oct 15 19:18:02 CDT 2002] Aaron Jones: MM TS
<Mike Bray> We need a way to easily associate a question with content delivery so that users can review only content relevant to a missed question. (a la bookmarking)
<Chuck> but what about if you want to store the users first time through a quiz to see if the write questions are asked?
<Mike Baker> I think we need to be able to tell an interaction icon to record in a specific place so the same interaction icon can be used for different interaction IDs
<Chris Swenson> Interaction[n].tries...that kinda thing?
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: good thinking
<Chuck> sorry...right, not write...
<Chris Swenson> sorry in Pascal mode...Interaction[n][#tries]
<Mike Baker> Then we could re-use code and based on prior information track multiple tries.
<Amy Blankenship> What do we do about thinks like the TotalCorrect variable?
<Steve Howard> then when you come to recording, you either record all tries or last try depending on needs
<Amy Blankenship> So a history of tries, tied up in a question id, not the Interaction's IconID
<Mike Baker> CurrentInteraction@"myInteraction" := InteractionList[x]
<Chris Swenson> Yes
<Amy Blankenship> How will that interactionlist be set up
<Chris Swenson> Mike that would do fine
<Chris Swenson> fine
<Chris Swenson> I really can't type
<Amy Blankenship> and how do we explain that without scaring the bejesus out of newbies?
<Chris Swenson> Amy - I say all of the AICC ones and then anything else we may need
<Amy Blankenship> For myself, I don't care as much about AICC
<Steve Howard> Amy the newbies can just quake like they always do :-)
<Amy Blankenship> what I care about is being able to have a mc question where a user can go in and change his mind as many times as he needs to, and click DONE and THEN have it scored
<Chris Swenson> It's the standard for LMS stuff. I'm not saying everybody use SCORM/AICC but if they could be tracked that way then they could be recorded using any method you'd like
<Chuck> maybe add another tab to the interaction icon?
<Steve Howard> I think the need for AICC etc. support is growing
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: built in tracking is a LOT about newbies. Advanced users can already so it themselves
<Chuck> with possible ways of tracking
<Amy Blankenship> Chuck: how do we keep it from being too complex to use?
<Mike Baker> So Amy you want a "suspend evaluation until" check box?
<Amy Blankenship> Mike...that's a good idea
<Steve Howard> yes .. but the minute you have to deliver to an LMS you have to learn a whole new thing if you are not already tracking in an advanced way - why not make it that you do it right from the start
<Chuck> help file!!!!
<Chris Swenson> Mike maybe as an active if field. SuspendEval until doeval = true
<Amy Blankenship> maybe build the "what it's until" into the interaction, like the Text box is
<Steve Howard> I hate the way the text box is built in like that
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: It can be advanced as you want....BUT...it has to be comprehensible to newbies
<Mike Baker> What does it mean to you, Steve, "right from the start"? What "right" for you?
<Steve Howard> it should be a response like others - that way you can have several text boxes on one interaction
[Tue Oct 15 19:25:21 CDT 2002] Aaron: keep getting disconnected :-(
<Glenn Bull> I hate the way the entire text interaction system works!
<Amy Blankenship> Aaron: quit surfin ;-)
<Chuck> maybe have a master interaction icon similar to a decision/framework and set all main properties for tracking within it
<Chuck> and have all interactions attached
<Steve Howard> Mike I was responding to Amy's comment about newbies. She says the tracking has to be easy for newbies - no dispute - but I am also saying that if they are shown 'advanced' tracking from the start they do not have a heart attack when they have to deliver to LMS
[Tue Oct 15 19:26:29 CDT 2002] Mark Henry: Rampant Lion Interactive, Inc.
<Aaron> both good points
<Mike Baker> Oh
<Amy Blankenship> Hi Mark
<Glenn Bull> Hi Mark!
<Mark Henry> Evening. Hope I didn't miss *too* much.
<Mike Bray> hey, mark
<Chris Swenson> half of my job is hiding complex code from junior level developers. I think "anything" can be done simply
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: no, we're still waitin for Jamil
<Mark Henry> Ah, he's a tad late then, isn't he?
<Ron Lubensky> Chris: that would be most of your stuff;-)
<Mike Baker> I think the goal is to get advanced tracking and make it seem not advanced by designing something they can use
<Steve Howard> yes Mike
<Mike Bray> Oops...look at the time. Gotta take the kid to Cub Scouts. Night all.
<Chris Swenson> Ron =+) sometimes its about hiding complex code from me too
<Mark Henry> Agreed. Like built-in AICC connectivity
<Steve Howard> see ya Mike
<Mark Henry> l8r
<Chris Swenson> bye
<Mike Baker> bye
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: finding lots of places to hide your cod these days?
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Glenn Bull> I beg your pardon!!!
<Steve Howard> if Tony only knew what he had started
<Amy Blankenship> Glenn: EuroTAAC joke....
<Chris Swenson> CODE
<Chuck> any feedback about having one master interaction like decision icon?
<Chris Swenson> silly girl =+)
<Steve Howard> Blame TT
<Chuck> for newbies this may make it easier to set up a quiz
<Steve Howard> what do you mean Chuck?
<Mark Henry> Chuck- could you expand on this idea. I don't get it.
<Chris Swenson> I'd like to see a property page of some kind some where that let me set up interaction tracking.
<Mike Baker> Interesting idea -- the "quiz" icon!
<Ron Lubensky> Chuck: a bit like KnowledgeTrack is set up now?
<Chris Swenson> I'm not sure sure if having a "master" interaction icon is the way to go.
<Chuck> ex. a decsion icon u can set to calc path etc.
<Steve Howard> Chris - a master page .. like a built-in spreadsheet thingummy where you can go in and just check boxes?
<Chuck> if you have a master interaction, you can set all your tracking variable within it for all attached interactions
<Chris Swenson> sorry...a property page is like any of the dialogs your seeing now in aw where you set up properties.
<Mike Baker> Where all the judging waits until they hit the end of the quiz or on each question (a checkbox)
<Amy Blankenship> So, kind of like how a Framework sets transitions for all attached pages
<Chuck> yes
<Mark Henry> Hmn, that's interesting.
<Steve Howard> I know .. I was expanding on it's usage ... if you happen to have 300 questions, do you want access to all 300 Qs Chris? In which case a biiiig property sheet
<Amy Blankenship> So, you could really adapt the current FW
<Amy Blankenship> And add interaction tracking
<Mark Henry> I'm not sure a new icon is the way to go
<Mark Henry> Now that's an idea Amy
<Amy Blankenship> So you could have TotalCorrect@"Framework"
<Chuck> have a way to set it to random paths/calc paths like a decision
<Chris Swenson> Steve...I'm not thinking that "global"...but maybe
<Mark Henry> Ooohhhhh
<Mike Baker> use the random selection of a decision icon
<Amy Blankenship> So we need a random nav icon
<Mark Henry> I like the TotalCorrect@"Framework" idea - that would help a lot
<Steve Howard> ooo - next you'll want a random GoTo
<Amy Blankenship> LOL
<Glenn Bull> haha
<Mike Baker> Already have random to unselected with a decision icon
<Mark Henry> I'd like to see some way to identify Responses that are excluded from being counted as Tries
<Chuck> yes, but a master interaction could expand upon it
<Mike Baker> What about order of priority if there's more than one correct in a 'page'
<Mike Baker> ?
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: I think that using the Framework as the basis for quizzes is more flexible than decisions...JMHO
<Mark Henry> Who was the '?" for?
<Ron Lubensky> problem with random is that user sees question 1 but has to be recorded as question x. Need level of indirection.
<Amy Blankenship> .Ron: not sure what you mean?
<Mike Baker> It was the ? for the immediately preceding line. Hit return too soon
<Steve Howard> I think we are all talking about different solutions for the same problem .. the need for a central place to administer the tracking ... rather than going to individual interactions
<Ron Lubensky> I normally use an "order list" that I prepare in advance. Instead of going to
<Ron Lubensky> question 1 I go to quesiton [ orderlist[ i]]
<Mike Baker> If it's not marked correct and it's not marked incorrect, then it's not used as a try, right?
<Mark Henry> Right. But should it be file-wide or localized to some more granular level like a Framework or Decision icon
<Glenn Bull> Crap, gotta go - have a meeting starting in 5 mins. Bye all!
<Mike Baker> on a page by page basis
<Mark Henry> Nope Everything is a try.
<Steve Howard> see ya Glenn
<Chuck> Steve, that is why I believe a master interaction would work. set up all the tracking in one place and then go to it...
<Mike Baker> I meant that it should not be a try
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: but is there any reason you can't look and *see* which question you are at with a random nave
<Steve Howard> Yeah Chuck .. and Amy want's Framework level. Chris wants one property sheet ... we just need to agree on what would be best :D
<Amy Blankenship> the cool thing with using that is that you later have the ability to use a calculated nav to go back through the same steps....
<Ron Lubensky> amy: yes.
<Chris Swenson> Or a couple of property sheets. one at the Quiz level one at the interaction level
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: I don't see why...we give them the suggestions....they do what works out after initial trials
<Steve Howard> Ron - that's what childIDtoNum is for :p
<Mark Henry> Mike - right now any Response match is a Try. So if I have a Judge Answer button it is a try.
<Amy Blankenship> Lots of times something sounds good in theory and does not work out too well
<Mike Baker> returning through the quiz should be handled for you
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: if it is not judged, it is not a try now, is it?
<Mike Baker> That's right, and that's wrong. :-)
<Steve Howard> Mike - yes ... unless we don't want that :D
<Ron Lubensky> of course, I was using shorthand;-)
<Mike Baker> What I mean is that it's currently used as a try, but it shouldn't be.
<Amy Blankenship> Mile: how can it be handled for you if you reuse code, and the whole "quiz" is 1 or two questions?
<Mark Henry> Mike - YES. I have AW6.5 open with an Interaction icon and a button marked Not Judged. Clicking the button increments Tries.
<Mike Baker> Yes, I understand
<Mike Baker> Amy, well that's what I gotta figure out, right?
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: this is where being able to look directly at JudgeStatus would be invaluable
<Amy Blankenship> so that even when these things slip in, the developer can correct for them
<Mark Henry> We can't change the current behavior, but could we add some way to ignore the Response when calculating items like Tries (there are probably more that should be ignored as well).
<Mike Baker> Oh, that's where "assigning" an interaction icon to implement a particular interaction "object" (if you will) would be useful again
<Steve Howard> Oh ... and all of these assignments need to be dynamic at runtime so that we CAN build engines with only one or two interactions
<Mark Henry> This sounds suspiciously like we're discussing reusable multi-icon functions; or did I miss something?
<Mike Baker> naturally
<Mike Baker> wouldn't be much use if it wasn't
<Steve Howard> sure ... but I want it stated clearly in the log :-)
<Mike Baker> The ability to disassociate code (the interaction) with data (the interaction variables) and then re-orient them to another item.
<Mark Henry> Mike - could you expand on your concept of an interaction "object"...
<Mike Baker> Each interaction has certain variables.. "data", like Correct@, Incorrect@, FirstTryCorrect@...
<Mike Baker> We need to be able to take an interaction and have it use different "copies" of this data
<Mark Henry> To me, mentally, this part of the discussion all boils down to being able to define Map icons as Functions
<Chris Swenson> Mike would it nice if those local variables would match up with elements in a collection.
<Amy Blankenship> Hm....variables local to an interactionid
<Mike Baker> So we can re-use an interaction for 15 MC questions without 15 interaction icons and 15 copies of code
<Amy Blankenship> that lives only in memory?
<Chris Swenson> FirstTryCorrect@ would be available as Intercation[n][#FirstTryCorrect]
<Ron Lubensky> Mike: I like it.
<Amy Blankenship> Can we create an interaction object in memory like an RTFID
<Mark Henry> Right - I do that now with the standard subroutine and loads of variables.
<Chris Swenson> lots of variables? use a list =+)
<Chris Swenson> brb
<Mark Henry> Well, or course it's a Property List - but there are still loads of properties
<Amy Blankenship> There needs to be a way to explain lists and make them unscary to newbies if that will fly Chris
<Mike Baker> Can't create these at runtime. But I'm thinking about just "pointing" it at new data
<Amy Blankenship> I think it might be better to somehow create a pseudo-icon with local tracking variables
<Amy Blankenship> like AllCorrectMatched@Question 1
<Amy Blankenship> where Question 1 is the "Question ID" and it's associated with the variable Question 1
<Ron Lubensky> No, I'd go for an abstract object variable in AW that automatically collects all data from one or more interaction
<Steve Howard> Yes me too
<Amy Blankenship> Ron...that is what I mean
<Mark Henry> So, what I'm hearing is, that we've got some kind of a Quiz Framework icon that hosts question types that can be reused and that tracks each use of the question models as distinct interactions/questions?
<Amy Blankenship> How do we go about "objectifying" it in such a way that it is understandable?
<Ron Lubensky> Amy: a list that is automatically populated.
<Steve Howard> anything but little floating circles in the presentation window :D
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: I mean how does the user get his or her hands on the list or object or whatever
<Mark Henry> There needs to be some simple method to pass data into the Quiz Framework, maybe defined at the individual Object level and then inherited upwards?
<Mike Baker> What wrong with bubbles on the presentation window
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: they make me sneeze
<Mark Henry> Now it's my turn: ?
<Steve Howard> You want a list? How about an object ? FLASH :D
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: that is more what I mean
<Amy Blankenship> But that would change the way people use/think about AW
<Steve Howard> Amy I was complaining about the bubbles :p
<Amy Blankenship> they are going to want an icon
<Steve Howard> But I know that is what you are meaning :p
<Amy Blankenship> so if you give people an icon, it makes the code reuse problematic
<Steve Howard> Why an icon? can we live with another ornament?
<Mark Henry> What if you defined a group of local icons at the Interaction icon level that were then exposed to the Quiz Framework?
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: I am not sure I am following?
<Mark Henry> Since buttons can now have variable labels those cover providing that contingency
<Amy Blankenship> and, what if you want to use that same question in a different quiz?
<Mark Henry> Okay, so you've got an Interaction icon in a Map hangin off of a Quiz Framework.
<Mark Henry> At the Interaction icon you define certain local variables for use by that Interaction
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: the ornament means the question id is now associated with something other than the abstract question
<Mike Baker> Had to answer the phone, let me catch up....
<Amy Blankenship> K
<Mike Baker> Change the way people use AW - the script icon come to mind?
<Steve Howard> the ornament represents your object ....
<Amy Blankenship> Mike...precisely...it is an ICON
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: the ornament to WHAT?
<Mark Henry> The parent Quiz Framework is "aware" of the Interaction icon's presence and exposes (lists) those local variables for assignment at the Framework level?
<Steve Howard> to the interaction. You wanted an interaction object - so the ornament *represents* the object
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: how do you provide for reuse? (i.e. more than one question per interaction, and vice versa)?
<Mike Baker> Group of icons at the interaction level? How about a checkbox for a framework that says "this is a quiz"
<Steve Howard> same as that little triangle represents a hyperlink
<Mark Henry> Mike - right!
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: No...I wanted a Question object....to store the data of the question independently from how it is presented
<Mark Henry> Amy - by assigning all of the properties of the interaction object to local variables assigned to the Interaction
<Mike Baker> Oh no! it went blank! :-)
<Mark Henry> Then the parent Quiz Framework "inherits" those local variables from each of the interactions it houses
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: so now there's another question I want to ask using the same interaction. Now what?
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: MSN messenger address?
<Ron Lubensky> Mike: mine too. buffer full.
<Mike Baker> Each interaction has to be able to refer to whatever question in the quiz we want it to
<Mark Henry> So, *somehow* we assign new values to the variables - things like stem@multiplechoice distractorA@multiplechoice etc
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: you too...we keep running tabs and update the log constantly for that reason
<Mark Henry> Then we navigate to the child that's the multiple choice.
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: that means the question has to have a "life of its own"
<Steve Howard> I just emailed you what you missed Mike ... pitsco address the right one?
<Amy Blankenship> So in AW's metaphor it needs to have an icon
<Amy Blankenship> Or, we start creating virtual objects, like the math object in Flash
<Mike Baker> Hmmm messenger, I know that thing's around here somewhere....
<Chris Swenson> I'm all for icons where it makes sense to have them...but I'm not into having an icon cause it might scare the newbies
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: don't worry...we have the log
<Chris Swenson> if we don't'
<Mark Henry> I don't think we need a "new" icon, just a child - like the ScriptFunction is an offshoot of a Calc
<Steve Howard> I agree Chris - is why I was suggesting an ornament to indicate the Question Object exists. The object is virtual isn't it?
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: I am just throwing the idea out there
<Chris Swenson> it's more of a record or structure then an object, but yeah it's virtual
<Chris Swenson> virtual
<Chris Swenson> I really can't type (or think) tonight
<Mike Baker> Don't worry about what I missed, I'll get the log
<Mike Baker> Not so much an object because (so far) we haven't defined a behavior
<Mike Baker> Still a record or a struct
<Chris Swenson> yep...everything is just data storage
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: but the whole idea is that the question has a life of its own, independent from the icons that present the content
<Mark Henry> I don't know - how abstract do we want to get with this? I'm thinking about something more like the ScriptIcon in a Framework/Map combination, but I get the impression that several people want to build code/icons on the fly...
<Steve Howard> yes independent of icons ... so why does it need an icon?
<Mike Baker> But its behavior could be report to DB X, or write to text file, I suppose
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: it needs to be able to work for newbies and advanced users
<Chris Swenson> I want to be able to access 2 things. The interaction as a separate object (lobw), and a collection of those interactions.
<Amy Blankenship> Otherwise, you get one group or the other left out
<Mark Henry> Right - that's why I'd prefer something that's exposed through Properties windows and not so code intensive
<Chuck> I think if its independent of an icon, the newbies won't know how to build it
<Mike Baker> Definitely - it *has* to have an interface
<Chuck> if it gets into even minor scripting, you will lose the majority
<Amy Blankenship> Chuck: right: so why not something *like* a script function icon (an icon that is not run) that has check boxes and such to let you set it up
<Chris Swenson> Chuck - that makes me sad
<Mark Henry> Chris - so the Framework/Interaction concept would provide the accessibility you're looking for?
<Chris Swenson> Maybe
<Ron Lubensky> default behavior is anchored to icons, but the data behind it is exposed and is reassignable.
<Chris Swenson> I'd want to get at it from a script level. but having property pages would be nice
<Amy Blankenship> also, give allow some sort of scriptable interface that lets you build stuff without needing an icon, for advanced users
<Mike Baker> I think a separate page of the framework properties that has the attributes of each question
<Chuck> what % out there in the AWARE community are scripters? not as many as icon draggers.
<Ron Lubensky> I would like virtual icons, but that's another story....
<Chris Swenson> Chuck - I know, that doesn't mean it's "right' though.
<Mike Baker> So would I, Ron :-)
<Mark Henry> Oh please, debugging bad code is hard enough as it is without having to debug virtual icons
<Steve Howard> I think the icon would be confusing. It is a floating icon pointing at some interactions somewhere ... over there maybe. It does not make sense to me
<Chuck> I fully understand Chris
<Chris Swenson> Ron. Yeah run time icons would be cool
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: how does that translate into using the questions from other frameworks? and what about 100 questions?
<Chris Swenson> Mark, virtual icons have to be defined somewhere.
<Chris Swenson> I debug class definitions all the time in other languages
<Mark Henry> Yes, but they're not written by graphic artists or instructional designers.
<Steve Howard> but Chris YOU ARE NOT NORMAL :-)
<Amy Blankenship> Why not give both: literal QuestionID's (Icon ID's of Question icons) and a GenerateQuestion() function
<Steve Howard> OOPS
<Mike Baker> You have a framework with 18 pages (each interaction type), and you define 100 questions in the framework. Each question you can say "use type 5" or whatever
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: we can debug WinCtrls, which are really much the same in concept
<Chris Swenson> ohh right I keep forgetting about the "anybody can use it" marketing...how many times does that get us in trouble? ;-)
<Steve Howard> lol
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: so you have to open the FW and edit it to define each question?
<Chuck> that is basically what I do now... have 5 interactions in a subroutine and call them when needed.
<Amy Blankenship> what about external content?
<Mark Henry> Hey, I was just bitchin', okay. You want virtual icons - fine, have virtual icons.
<Mike Baker> Chris - once you get through ONE language, others are easy. Many people haven't made it through their first
<Chris Swenson> Ok that's settled. =+)
<Chris Swenson> Mike I understand
<Mark Henry> I'd rather define the interaction parameters outside of the Framework, then jump to the question and execute it and return.
<Chris Swenson> I want to see it as easy as possible, but I'd hate to give something up or make it convoluted (sp?) because we try to make it too easy. Some things are what they are
<Amy Blankenship> door...brb
<Ron Lubensky> mark: agreed. One builds a "constructor" tool that collects the params. Then a "runtime" tool that delivers is.
<Mike Baker> I'm trying to think of a way where it's intuitively localized. So you can "see" on the flowline that this is a quiz and you don't have to go far to find out the details
<Steve Howard> That is what I said earlier ... show the newbies the right way, even if it is a little tough. And if it is tough, some of the doubters will take AW a little more seriously ;-)
<Mark Henry> It's a Framework with some kind of unique tag or icon like the ScriptFunction.
<Mike Baker> Yeah something like that
<Mike Baker> Or a new brand of decision icon with a "Q" or something
<Amy Blankenship> ? for not English speaker
<Chuck> that's what I was saying earlier... a master interaction
<Mike Baker> whatever
<Chris Swenson> What is up with the decision icons? =+)
<Mark Henry> Mike - is there some reason why you keep coming back to a Decision icon? Does something "click" for you with that where it doesn't with a Framework?
<Mike Baker> I haven't forgotten Chuck
<Mike Baker> Nope
<Mike Baker> nothing special, framework, decision, whatever
<Ron Lubensky> frameworks define scope. is that an issue here?
<Mike Baker> not that I'm aware of
<Chris Swenson> scope is dependent on how they are accessed
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: I think it is more that the questions should be "scopeless", able to be used where needed
<Ron Lubensky> if a question relies on perpetuals, then it should be in a framework page. of course you could nest it inside a framework under a decision.
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: why NOT use question icons that are like Function icons...able to be placed anywhere in the file, but basically inert except for the information they store?
<Mark Henry> Amy - We'd loose that approach with the Decision icon, but gain some other nice things (navigation things) with the Framework 9I think)
<Ron Lubensky> Amy: scope means that certain things (like perpetuals) cannot be seen outside.
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: I'm not talking about the functioning of a question, but the data of a question
<Amy Blankenship> two totally different ideas
<Chris Swenson> We need a way to store independent interaction objects and a way to form those into a collection by reference
<Mark Henry> You should be able to call a question type from anywhere within the file
<Chris Swenson> interactions being any type of tracked assessment or interaction
<Steve Howard> Amy it might make sense to you to place this in a remote icon, but it seems to me it would be lots more confusing to newbies than other things suggested here
<Amy Blankenship> Not any more confusing than function icons
<Amy Blankenship> Put in examples, show me's tutorials, what have you, that show the person defining all the questions used in the quiz in a map at the top of the flow
<Mike Baker> I see what you mean Mark. Without being able to call it from other places, then you would have to duplicate the code for two quizzes
<Steve Howard> But you know you are calling those. What you are describing is a safety deposit box in the next county
<Mike Baker> Not real good code re-use
<Mark Henry> Hang on- if the Quiz Framework (or whatever) is aware of the assignable parameters that each interaction object accepts, what if we exposed those parameters through the Navigation icon once am Interaction object was selected as the Destination?
<Mark Henry> My spelling sucks
<Steve Howard> Navigation icon???
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: that means that the interaction would be one and only one question
<Steve Howard> it makes sense to have the tracking data in the container, not the pointer
<Amy Blankenship> unless you can take a different question and switch it out
<Mark Henry> Right - so you create a Quiz Framework with each of your question types hanging off it. Each Question Type is an Interaction Object that accepts certain parameters
<Amy Blankenship> which means, again, each question would have to be its own independent thing
<Amy Blankenship> Mark...question TYPE and question ITSELF are two different things
<Steve Howard> What about a new menu option ... Modify > File > Interaction Tracking
<Mike Baker> I'm getting a headache :-)
<Mark Henry> You use a Navigate icon to jump to the multiple-choice Interaction Object - the Navigate icon DYNAMICALLY creates a Properties tab with the assignable parameters of that object listed in it
<Amy Blankenship> so if I have "what is a tuna fish sandwich?" I want AllcorrectMatched to travel with "What is a Tuna fish sandwich?", NOT with the interaction that can also ask "Who killed John F Kennedy?"
<Mark Henry> Just like you would use a Navigate icon to jump to t a subroutine you would use a Navigate icon to jump to an Interaction Object and pass it the required parameters
<Steve Howard> Interaction Tracking opens up a "movie explorer" style window where you can easily locate and select whatever interaction and properties you want
<Steve Howard> Interaction Tracking is way less confusing than an icon
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: you are think about it in terms of passing the question body and distractors along, not in terms of also storing responses, etc.
<Steve Howard> way less confusing than stuff on Navigation icons and Frameworks or Decisions
<Chris Swenson> there will be times when I want to use the same question a different way. It's in the pretest...then don't track..it's. in a chapter review then track with a weight of 10..it's in the post test then track with a weight of 50. Need a way to handle that too
<Amy Blankenship> The question should encompass all of that
<Ron Lubensky> The fact that the parameters themselves are determined by the interaction would mean a dynamic dialog.
<Chuck> I need to go, but am looking forward to reading the log and seeing if anything comes out of this. Have a good evening all.
<Steve Howard> Hence dynamically allocated by code it required Chris
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one Chuck
<Chris Swenson> bye chuck
<Steve Howard> See ya Chuck
<Amy Blankenship> You should sign up to Beta test 7 if you really want to know
<Amy Blankenship> :-)
<Steve Howard> 7? What have you been hearing?
<Amy Blankenship> Nothing
<Chris Swenson> Steve can you expand on that a bit more
<Amy Blankenship> but my best guess is the next version is 7
<Steve Howard> Well we already agreed not all interactions will be tracked
<Mark Henry> Ron - right, the properties listed in the Navigate icon would be dynamically generated based on what was "exposed" at the Interaction icon level when the Object was created (much like you would define the parameters and return values of a ScriptFunction).
<Mike Baker> going straight to 21 :-)
<Chris Swenson> right I get that but where is that info stored. We have content, a display mechanism, and a way to define per instance how the data is to be used.
<Ron Lubensky> Mark: reminds me of the Director behaviors setup.
<Steve Howard> and it is logical to have a central administration page/property sheet ... so why not have it as a mini flow what you can easily navigate and access?
<Steve Howard> or have an alt view that is like a spreadsheet
<Steve Howard> or whatever
<Mark Henry> Steve - you mean a sideline Flowline?
<Mark Henry> Something not on the main flow, but accessible?
<Steve Howard> Possibly - I did say Movie Explorer initially ... like in Flash
<Amy Blankenship> If you did that (spreadsheet), it might be possible to build in custom properties
<Steve Howard> yes
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: I think we should use the display mechanisms we already have....just add a separate place for data display
<Mike Baker> Anybody says 'timeline' and I'm leavin' :-)
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Amy Blankenship> timel...oops
<Mark Henry> Oh, please.
<Steve Howard> good job you stopped before you said ine
<Amy Blankenship> :-D
<Steve Howard> anyway - surely Flash copied Authorware with the Movie Explorer? ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: meant data storage, not display
<Mark Henry> I can see this thing working in my head, but I don't think I'm getting the idea across the way I see it
<Steve Howard> If we have the data accessible, let Mike care about where he stores it :D
<Amy Blankenship> I don't know Shirley Flash
<Chris Swenson> Amy wasn't clear
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: I have the same feeling about what I am saying
<Chris Swenson> What I meant is that the interaction will contain certain things. text, images, buttons, etc. that is the display mechanism
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: do I need to clarify further...?
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: which we already have
<Mark Henry> Right - it's an Interaction Engine
<Ron Lubensky> the interaction is the renderer.
<Chris Swenson> the question ko's
<Chris Swenson> ?
<Mike Baker> Did anybody see Shirley flash?
<Amy Blankenship> What we REALLY need is a way to port around the DATA that goes with a specific question
<Amy Blankenship> And transfer that data to another interaction or whatever
<Mark Henry> Right - what of we could marry database or items from a text file to the assignable properties each object. But do it directly?
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: could you please rephrase....I am not following
<Ron Lubensky> mark-that brings us back to the start of the chat.
<Steve Howard> if we run with the explorer/spreadsheet idea we already have a database prebuilt .... it is just a graphical representation of the property list we would build ourselves
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: married to what?
<Mark Henry> Okay, we've got that Interaction Engine thingy all setup and ready to go with whatever types of questions or drag-and-drops we need in our course.
<Steve Howard> married to the interaction ID presumably
<Mark Henry> So now we need to pass the correct parameters to the engine to make it do its thing for, let's say, Question #8 a Drag-And-Drop
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: so now you want to present another question with that interaction. Now what?
<Amy Blankenship> Mark...go on<Mark Henry> Whatever we use to pass the info - Navigate icon, ScriptFunction call whatever - should allow us to define where the data comes from in an easy-to-use/see manner
<Steve Howard> It has the ability to track TryAtMe[1] ...[2] ... so it has a list of properties
<Amy Blankenship> OK, but does whatever we use to pass the info also have hooks for storing what the user did while in the question?
[Tue Oct 15 20:30:01 CDT 2002] Chuck: I'm back, wife's sleeping!!!!
<Steve Howard> more properties
<Mark Henry> Otherwise we'll be re-entering the same question for each time we want to use it
<Steve Howard> you have a checkbox ... single use/multi use
<Mark Henry> There needs to be a collection system - maybe at the Quiz Framework level that you define when you make it a Quiz Framework?
<Steve Howard> single use has one set of properties, multiuse has same properties, but can store multiple instances
<Amy Blankenship> OK, Steve, but where do you store the user response so that it stays with the QUESTION, not the interaction
<Mike Baker> Maybe the interaction would always store the same data, but to different places based on what you pass in
<Steve Howard> TryAtMe[#Response1 was]
<Steve Howard> or
<Amy Blankenship> OK, Mike, so how do you present that same question in another place, with its FirstTryCorrect, etc., data intact?
<Steve Howard> TryAtMe[1][#Response] more logically
<Mark Henry> Mike - right, so we could define maybe a QuestionID along with the parameters, so relevant data would be stored in Tries@QuestionID?
<Chris Swenson> You store the data in an instance
<Mike Baker> Don't have the interaction store multiple instances, have it re-orient itself to a different spot
<Ron Lubensky> I built a huge course-delivery system called LearnSwitch and the biggest issue I faced with dynamic content was that it rendered poorly when there was too much text, the pictures were too big, etc. I had to make the playback be able to dynamically locate every asset. It ends up being hard or ugly.
<Chris Swenson> you load the instance data into the interaction display
<Amy Blankenship> Mark...that is what I have been saying for about the last hour
<Amy Blankenship> That we need to have a question object that is independent of the way the question is presented
<Chris Swenson> Amy yes
<Chris Swenson> the data definition
<Mark Henry> I think we just need to be able to define/assign a name to the object when we "create" it
<Mike Baker> Yup, sounds like a plan :-)
<Chris Swenson> That would have to be instanced and then passed to a display
<Mark Henry> Right
<Steve Howard> so Amy -- is there one question object per file, or one per interaction, or one per question
<Chris Swenson> that instance would be reloaded or another instance of the same data could be created
<Mark Henry> Hey, I think we're actually all getting onto the same page. Sort of ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Steve: there would be one question per question of course
<Steve Howard> Question Object?
<Amy Blankenship> Yes
<Mark Henry> There's one Object per Interaction - but you can create multiple instances of that Object
<Mike Baker> The question 'object' that Amy's talking about is just data. They could be used in any way that any interaction icon is set up
<Amy Blankenship> so you are talking about scattering 100 question Object icons on the flowline?
<Amy Blankenship> No, Mark...that is one question per Question you want to ask
<Mark Henry> No, I think that the Objects themselves would be limited to very few Quiz Frameworks.
<Amy Blankenship> because you might want to use the one Interaction for other things as well
<Amy Blankenship> Mike...right ;-)
<Mark Henry> Each Quiz Framework setup to do things differently -track/don't track, update certain vars,. etc.
<Steve Howard> So if it is just data ... how is it not the Modify > File > Question Tracking I was suggesting?
[Wed Oct 16 02:21:27 GMT+01:00 2002] a p: me
<Mike Baker> I don't know, Steve. didn't see it
<Mark Henry> Steve - that's Global (File based) as opposed to being some form of Parent/Child association
<Amy Blankenship> I lost my window...missed part of the action
<Steve Howard> How? It is just a viewer .. the associations still there ..it has to be
<Amy Blankenship> I'm going to take a wild guess (since I don't know what actually was said....
<Mark Henry> Yes, but I'm thinking that there are behaviors/properties/events that you would want to set at the Group-level so as to have several "Groups", each with their own Interaction Objects
<Amy Blankenship> But why not have maps that contain question icons
<Ron Lubensky> Gotta go. Great blue-sky chat!
<Amy Blankenship> and have a check box like for function icons, to define them as "quizzes"
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one Ron
<Chris Swenson> bye Ron
<Mike Baker> See ya Ron
<Mark Henry> By Ron! Have a good morning, er, ah, afternoon, evening? Have a good day!
<Amy Blankenship> G'Day , mate!
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
<Mark Henry> Man, there are SO many different ways to slice this idea up and execute it.
<Amy Blankenship> Yes :-D
<Amy Blankenship> Bet Jamil never imagined we'd head THIS way with it when he asked for this chat
<Chris Swenson> So to answer the original question...why don't I use the built in tracking...not robust enough.
[Tue Oct 15 20:41:34 CDT 2002] Steve has no profile.
<Chris Swenson> sounds like we all want more
[Tue Oct 15 20:41:41 CDT 2002] Chuck Lewis: darn browser exploded
<Amy Blankenship> And does not act in such a way as to actually be useful
<Mark Henry> Not flexible enough, not automated enough (but TOO automated in some areas) and can't be localized.
<Mark Henry> The problem(s) I run into is when I try to use 1 Interaction icon to power a really big interaction like a whole screen worth of objects in a system sim
<Mark Henry> The built-in tracking doesn't allow me to isolate different Responses from each other, it just clumps everything together by the Interaction that it's held on.
<Mark Henry> Also, many of the variables don't react the way I would expect them to. Look at AllCorrectMatched
<Mark Henry> You would think that it would only be True as long as all the Judged Correct Response were selected.
<Mark Henry> Not true
<Mark Henry> If you select a Judged Correct Response, then unselect it (like with a checkmark button) then it's still counted as having been selected as correct at some time
<Mark Henry> So, AllCorrectMatched can be True, although you've unselected one (or more) of the Judged Correct Responses.
<Chris Swenson> Yeah that seems buggy to me too
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, because it checks if they were EVER matched, not if they are CURRENTLY matched
<Chris Swenson> well bad design
[Tue Oct 15 20:47:42 CDT 2002] Steve H has no profile.
<Mark Henry> Yes, but most new users don't expect it to work that way and the write-up in the Var window doesn't make it clear
<Amy Blankenship> yes...I guess what MM may REALLY need from us is examples of what sorts of information we are really tracking
<Amy Blankenship> Maybe we should each submit a typical question
<Mark Henry> Right now there's no "easy" way to do a multiple-choice/multiple-select style question without having to write some custom tracking code
<Steve H> you can do it easy if you give only one shot at answering ;-)
<Mark Henry> Hey, good idea. I'll go tell my client. ;-)
<Mark Henry> Sorry, it's been a LONG day and my temper is showing.
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: Shirley you have some old examples you don't mind sharing ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> Ooh, did I call you Shirley? ;-)
<Steve H> what exactly is a typical question? ;-)
<Mark Henry> Oooh, Shirley. I could used to that.
<Mark Henry> Nothing "typical" about my clients.
<Amy Blankenship> I think we can all agree that a typical multiple choice question includes the ability to select answers and deselect an answers, only scoring when the user is ready
<Mark Henry> Right
<Steve H> yes
<Steve H> but .. they are still not all the same :p
[Tue Oct 15 20:52:17 CDT 2002] Andrew Poulos has no profile.
<Steve H> Hey Andrew
<Mark Henry> It should also allow the designer to define which Responses are actually tracked by the Interaction icon
<Amy Blankenship> and that the current tracking simply does not fit the bill on figuring out if the user passed the question, much less anything else
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Andrew
<Andrew Poulos> Hi guys.
<Andrew Poulos> And Amy
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
<Mark Henry> Sadly, that is correct.
<Andrew Poulos> what's with having a chat when it's daylight hours in Sydney
<Mark Henry> I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that our administrators have become more savvy and want to parse the data to a finer degree than previously
<Steve H> it's so they can keep me up until dawn
<Amy Blankenship> Andrew: when I move to Australia, that will be tops on my list ;-)
<Mark Henry> Some of that is coming from the LMS systems they're buying
<Amy Blankenship> However, if MM made it so that we could figure out if the question was answered correctly, that would be a big step in the right direction
<Steve H> Mark - they want clever numbers, but will still use them the same way they ever did? Pass/Fail
<Mark Henry> I've got one client that asked for tons of data capturing for analysis that they'll never do. They just wanted to send the info to the LMS.
<Amy Blankenship> Or, we could have a helpful Aussie hosting chats while I am asleep
<Mark Henry> Steve - right. Loads of data with no one paying any attention to anything other than the final score.
<Steve H> why should you get to sleep???
<Andrew Poulos> I've no idea on how to host a chat
<Steve H> That is why I laugh at Corporates buying LMS systems
<Mark Henry> You guys get to sleep? Boy, I remember when I used to sleep. Those were the good ol' days!
<Amy Blankenship> Say "I'm hosting a chat in Amy's chat room"....the topic is xxxxx
<Amy Blankenship> show up
<Chris Swenson> xxx? when is that one.
<Chris Swenson> sorry had to
<Steve H> Mark - let me know when it's 3am ;-)
<Andrew Poulos> oh, that simple
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: I am saving myself for when I have kids :-P
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: bad boy ;-)
<Steve H> Delores Devine is hosting that one
<Mark Henry> What time was that (in EST please)?
<Amy Blankenship> LOL
<Steve H> Amy if you save yourself you'll never have any ;-)
<Mark Henry> Amy - stocking up for when you have kids?
<Mike Baker> xxx, that's when Shirley flashes, right?
<Steve H> you gottit Mike :D
<Mark Henry> Hey Mike, are you getting all this good stuff down?
<Steve H> Hey Amy and Guys ... I gotta hit the sack. I have to get up early for school soon .....
<Chris Swenson> ya know....with all that we talked about I'm still not sure I'd use it
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: it is all being logged
<Mike Baker> Nope - forgetting it all ;-)
<Chris Swenson> see ya Steve
<Mike Baker> Amy said she'll save the log like always
<Steve H> Bye Chris ... 'Night everybody <Yawn>
<Mark Henry> Light weight
<Mike Baker> Bye Steve
<Mark Henry> ;-)
<Steve H> LOL - at 3am ? :-(
<Chuck Lewis> Chris, what ever happened to the Authorware code collection thing from a few months ago?
<Steve H> I should be ashamed
<Chris Swenson> I think it's being discussed again.... we were waiting on script functions before we started.
<Amy Blankenship> erm...
<Chris Swenson> so much will / has changed
<Amy Blankenship> welll...
<Chuck Lewis> it died out when people were thinking of what to call it.
<Mike Baker> At this rate by the time you get done you'll have to change it again ;-)
<Chuck Lewis> lol
<Mark Henry> Mike - what do we need to do to help "you guys at MM" define the tracking stuff better?
<Andrew Poulos> What worries me a bit is scorm itself
<Chris Swenson> Andrew how so?
<Amy Blankenship> Chuck: I think it died more because a lot of us were on the beta
<Mike Baker> Until Jamil asked for the chat I didn't know he was curious about it. So I'm kinda lost.
<Andrew Poulos> And it's rule that one sco shall never directly send a user to another sco
<Chris Swenson> Andrew...that's how it should be...what's the concern?
<Mark Henry> That's why many/most SCORM projects I've seen define an SCO as an entire Lesson or even a Course.
<Andrew Poulos> one of AW's strength lies in the ability to easily tie multiple "topics" together
<Mike Baker> Why is that how it should be?
<Amy Blankenship> And that's a shame because it cuts down reusibility
<Chris Swenson> Sharable content object...it's a granualar piece of content, the whole reason behind scorm
<Andrew Poulos> Scorm demands that all sco only communicate to a lms never to each other
<Mark Henry> And it kills the ability to search and navigate around, use bookmarking, intuitively branch, etc...
<Andrew Poulos> The LMS is supposed to do that
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: yes, but if sharing it means the navigation is a PIA, then what is the point?
<Mike Baker> Beginning to sound useless to me
<Amy Blankenship> The navigation should be pleasant and seamless, otherwise you interrupt the learning process
<Andrew Poulos> I spent two days at oracle looking at their lms
<Chris Swenson> Amy and it can be. Some LMS's are better then others.
<Andrew Poulos> You need to do a week's course to learn how to use it.
<Chris Swenson> SCORM isn't the answer to everything. there is a "checklist" of things that you trying to solve before you jump on scorm as the answer
<Amy Blankenship> Client wants it id often the whole checklist ;-)
<Mark Henry> How'd this degenerate to SCORM?
<Amy Blankenship> Andrew's fault
<Mike Baker> Hell if I know.
<Chris Swenson> SCORM is the "hot" thing in tracking right now
<Mark Henry> Ooh, look! He has a gross SCORM on his chin!
<Amy Blankenship> it's what comes from living in a country settled by criminals LOL
<Amy Blankenship> Plus, we have been at this for over 2 hours
<Amy Blankenship> a little light abusmement is just what we need
<Mike Baker> yeah, so?
<Mike Baker> ahh
<Mark Henry> I need another beer. And more chips.
<Amy Blankenship> I'm gonna grab a snack
<Amy Blankenship> brb
<Mike Baker> Get me one while you're up :-)
<Amy Blankenship> OK, looks like all the important stuff was said while I was gone
<Mark Henry> Okay, well, how's life treating everyone?
<Mike Baker> Yup, we waited 'til you left
<Andrew Poulos> We've been trying to build a front-end to a scorm based lms
<Mark Henry> We all went to private chats...
<Amy Blankenship> :-)
<Andrew Poulos> So that we can have our look and feel but not compromise scorm
<Amy Blankenship> Don't most LMS's already have front ends?
<Amy Blankenship> ah
<Andrew Poulos> Yep but they are typical corporate design
<Chuck Lewis> Ingenium, customizable to a point
<Mike Baker> Yeah - cruddy , bland, unintutive front ends
<Mark Henry> Damn usability
<Mark Henry> Who needs it anyway?
<Chuck Lewis> has anyone here used Ingenium?
<Chris Swenson> they do publish the API ya know....
<Amy Blankenship> Next topic: How can AW sole the problem of icky LMS front ends LOL
<Andrew Poulos> When a client says "I want" I try and give it to them
<Mark Henry> Shoot. Just build the dang LMS in AW to begin with, then externalize all your graphics
<Mike Baker> Everybody get together and build a front end with Authorware?
<Amy Blankenship> So, is AW's tracking giving you the information you need to solve the problem Andrew?
<Chris Swenson> sorry mike but too slow...
<Amy Blankenship> Mark: we've looked at doing that where I work
<Andrew Poulos> That's one of the roads we're exploring. Create a sub-set of scorm that we'll support then use AW (or Flash) to talk to a web db.
<Mark Henry> I bought one years ago for the Navy in AW3.5 The command I built it for is still using it today
<Mark Henry> Chris- what was too slow about it? Startup?
<Mark Henry> Heck with Dreamweaver MX you could build the basics in a day or so
<Mike Baker> I thought he meant I was too slow typing
<Chris Swenson> start up execution, etc. when compared to other tools.
<Andrew Poulos> Scorm use a javascript API match that with xml manifests and you have many lost nights.
<Chris Swenson> Andrew. yeah that's another issue.
<Mark Henry> Isn't the Java Script API mostly just he AICC stuff? So then we just need to handle the manifests.
<Chris Swenson> Mark it's all the communication
<Mark Henry> And what about a manifest builder for AW?
<Chris Swenson> as well as handling the pif
<Amy Blankenship> hooo
<Amy Blankenship> that's a huge chunk to swallow
<Amy Blankenship> what's a pif?
<Mark Henry> Hey, I don't know what you've been told. But I NEVER handled no PIF.
<Chris Swenson> a packaged file for Scorm
<Amy Blankenship> I think you're protesting too loudly
<Andrew Poulos> Using Aspen we've written several hundred lines of js.
<Mike Baker> Program Inforamtion File so you can run your 16 bit shortcut from DOS
<Mike Baker> Am I showing my age again?
<Mark Henry> Did you just look that up in your programmer's dictionary?
<Andrew Poulos> Hmmm, I just realized I haven't used Ron's scorm command yet
<Amy Blankenship> Mike: we were pretending we didn't notice WHAT you were showing ;-)
<Mark Henry> Ahem.
<Amy Blankenship> Andrew: what about the other Andrew's LMS KO's?
<Chris Swenson> Amy, those are actually quite nice
<Mark Henry> Those are good for AICC connection. Very smooth.
<Chris Swenson> but I don't think they build the manifest files
<Mark Henry> No manifest.
<Mark Henry> But you know, it shouldn't be *that* difficult to do a darned manifest file through a Command and a Dive routine.
<Mark Henry> Not that I've got a moment of time.
<Amy Blankenship> Sounds like it might be time fore the repeat of the LMS chat
<Chris Swenson> yeah it will be
<Andrew Poulos> Before one gets into scorm there's so much to learn. I don't want to use the LMS KO's until I know a bit more about scorm.
<Chris Swenson> Mark , most of the information you'll need won't be there
<Mark Henry> So, do what we usually do. Make it up, or put up a dialog box and let the user make it up.
<Chris Swenson> which is what Ron's command is for. =+)
<Andrew Poulos> There's still tons you need to know before you can start
<Mark Henry> Oh man, look at the time. I've got a deliverable in the morning I've GOT to get finished.
<Mark Henry> I've got to call it a night.
<Chris Swenson> Ok bye Mark
<Amy Blankenship> Lightweight!
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> night Mark
<Mark Henry> Hey, I ain't going to bed.. I just can't package and upload while doing this stuff and Premier takes up MEMORY
<Amy Blankenship> I'm kind of thinking in terms of toddling off to do something else too
<Chris Swenson> I need to go too
<Amy Blankenship> Night, all