<Andrew Chemey> I definitely recommend the KO's
<Andrew Chemey> Thanks for the good word
<Steve Howard> OK you can all quit yacking about me now :D
<Andrew Chemey> However, they make the issues significantly easier
[Thu Nov 07 01:05:24 GMT+00:00 2002] Amy Blankenship: That Amy
<Andrew Poulos> I've been finding that I need to alter the ancillary SCORM stuff for each LMS.
<Andrew Chemey> really - what types of changes?
[Thu Nov 07 01:05:45 GMT+00:00 2002] Michael Mizen has no profile.
<Andrew Chemey> AICC has been problematic - for example SABA doesn't necessarily play nice
<Steve Howard> Hey Guys .. Amy sends her apologies .. she is having technical difficulties
<Andrew Chemey> On launch of an AICC-compliant file, an LMS is supposed to pass two parameters (AICC_URL and AICC_SID)
<Michael Mizen> love the chat idea but this is the 5th attempt to get in without being kicked out; If IE nails me again I'll just go elsewhere in regret that I missed some good conversations; good luck to all
<Steve Howard> Maybe it is overloaded Michael?
<Michael Mizen> not sure
<Andrew Chemey> I had to switch to a different computer, because the first two didn't show me anyone who was logged in
<Steve Howard> seems we are busy in here tonight
<Jeff McGuire> Aye
<Steve Howard> We have to beat up Chris Swenson ... he was going to give us a AW-based chat
[Thu Nov 07 01:08:01 GMT+00:00 2002] Amy B: that Amy
<Amy Blankenship> sorry, all
<Andrew Chemey> The AICC_URL is supposed to be URL-encoded, because of problems that SABA causes
<Michael Mizen> the big picture...AICC or SCORM or LMS...we know what these mean but we might as well be educating those with budgets on "this is a URL and this is what you could do with it."
<Andrew Chemey> The URL that SABA passes is not URL-encoded and includes different characters like "?", "-", "\", "/"
<Bob Fregin> Has the need for LMS been growing or languishing?
<Andrew Chemey> growing
<Michael Mizen> But how? buzz word or buzz word with understanding....
<Steve> growing fast .... people are believing the hype
<Andrew Chemey> I know a big organization who has cut (100%) the travel budget of their employees
<Mark Schupp> Andrew, you might consider adding some JavaScript code to the launch page to clean up problems like you mention with SABA
<Andrew Chemey> This is an organization with over 300k employees
<Bob Fregin> Have the demands been specific (informed)?
<Andrew Chemey> I have them in the One-button publishing template that I include with the KO's
<Andrew Chemey> Thanks Mark
<Michael Mizen> "...believing the hype." This is scary
<Joan Huq> We had our LMS for a year now, it has been successful due to travel restrictions
<Andrew Chemey> The new HTML template encodes the parameters
<Andrew Chemey> However, it's supposed to be encoded to be "compliant"
<Andrew Chemey> when it comes from the LMS
<Steve> Michael ... you know me. Ever the cynic. Most companies don't NEED an LMS but they buy into them anyway
[Wed Nov 06 19:25:00 CST 2002] Ron McNutt: knowledgeware@kccsoft.com
<Mark Schupp> We had to do encoding in the html page with some of our early samples because of browser differences
<Andrew Chemey> Another problem that SABA has, causes a problem when trying to send a PostURL command from AW
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Ron
<Michael Mizen> the opportunity is to control using the hype about LMS. I think presently it is out of control
<Andrew Chemey> The HTML page that the KO's use is for both AICC and SCORM-compliant files
<Ron McNutt> Hi all.... just here for a few minutes to get my name in....don't be insulted when I sign off!
<Andrew Chemey> Anyone can use it (even if they don't use the KO's)
<Amy Blankenship> OK...
<Andrew Chemey> Makes it easy to distribute one set of AW files (including HTML file) without having to give different HTML launch files
<Joan Huq> KO for 6 or 5.6 Andrew?
<Steve> Hey Ron .. Don't insult us like that :p
<Andrew Chemey> They work with Authorware 5, 6 and 6.5
<Michael Mizen> but Andrew we have no taught the end users the value of AICC or SCORM; we just have handed it down as "edict."
<Mark Schupp> We hear a lot of problems with SABA (even got some fallout biz) Don't know what they are doing to complicated things, believe it or not an LMS is not Rocket Science
<Andrew Chemey> And the KO's that I just released will work without a conversion (though it's recommended)
<Bob Fregin> Isn't it part of our 'job' to recommend or 'not recommend' the need for an LMS i.e.: advantages, disadvantages, cost, etc?
<Andrew Chemey> This means that you can develop the files using AW 6 and not have to use a separate utility to upgrade the KO icons in your AW file after converting your file to AW 6.5
<Michael Mizen> amen Bob F. ---there is thinking on what can be billed versus what is hype
<Vahe Kassardjian> I don't want to sound like badmouthing, but the SABA demo at DevCon's E-Learning day failed miserably.
<Andrew Chemey> Hello Vahe - didn't see you there
<Vahe Kassardjian> C'mon. I am at the top of the list.
<Steve> Bob we can say what we like ... but the Hype is at seminars and in journals and magazines everywhere... People tell me they must have an LMS
<Bob Fregin> OR are we being driven by an uninformed client?
<Andrew Chemey> I think a lot of problems actually fall on the LMS vendors
<Amy Blankenship> The client is the one with the$$$
<Amy Blankenship> :-D
<Andrew Chemey> A lot of organizations use LMS's - but according to the stat's, while the LMS's don't fulfill their needs, they don't switch
<Steve> an uninformed client with the $$$$
<Andrew Chemey> probably because it costs so much to invest in most
<Michael Mizen> I'll second the motion ---being driven by an uninformed client
<Steve> yes
<Andrew lucking> They had it up a few days later in another session Vahe. It sure seems "big" - lots of bells and whistles!
<Andrew Chemey> Some other solutions (like WBT Manager) and myCMI work for a lot of people
<Mina> It seems like LMSs do a lot for you. Some aren't terribly expensive.
<Joan Huq> I agree our LMS could not support audio bandwidth when we first started
<Michael Mizen> LMS=server=we have to have one; why ; I am not sure; but we have to have one.
<Bob Fregin> I personally believe that a training 'System' needs student tracking but a lot of 'just in time training' is hard to track .
<Steve> they can do loads more than anyone actually utilizes though Mina
<Jeff McGuire> myCMI is very basic (no compliance) but very customizable.
<Amy Blankenship> I am unclear as to what an LMS has to do with bandwidth
<Amy Blankenship> doesn't the LMS just launch the thing?
<Mina> I agree. And so can my AW!!
<Steve> Yes
<Steve> YES 2 Mina
<Andrew Chemey> There is still bandwidth issues (even without live instructor-led courses)
<Mark Schupp> What an LMS does is allow you to concentrate on the content rather than building yet another database and set of reports.
<Joan Huq> Don\t know why but I was not allowed to used audio till this year by my LMS Manager
<Steve> so most clients need ... Course started, course completed, test passed. Oh ... Name please? ... that's it. Nothing more. Why spend $500000 on an LMS for that?
<Andrew Chemey> If you try to have 10000 users log into a system that is on a single server - causes problems
<Michael Mizen> random stat---Red Herring Nov02-there are 600 million users of the Internet; 24 million on high speed bandwidth
<Andrew Chemey> But the internet is on many servers - not just one
<Mark Schupp> Joan, are you on a hosted LMS where you lease space and bandwidth
<Mina> But they're not all $500K. For that, we'd have gone with a text file and done without. But having a tool that can grow with us, while meeting our current needs was very attractive. And WBT Manager wasn't too hard a sell!
<Andrew Chemey> Basic LMS should have the ability to split across three or more servers
<Bob Fregin> I have to leave but I hope that I can come back and follow the conversation.
<Joan Huq> Is it a custom built/docent
<Amy Blankenship> Bob...I'm going out of town this weekend, but I should be posting the chat log when I get back
<Amy Blankenship> check the More page
<Steve> Yes.. so WBT Manager does that .. it can share load over servers, it can grow. Who needs to spend more?
<Andrew Chemey> exactly
<Andrew Chemey> that's why WBT Manager is a good deal
<Steve> absolutely
<Andrew Chemey> Joan - how many users on your Docent system
<Jeff McGuire> Is WBT Mngr starter package ~3K now?
<Steve> something like that, but that's for about 10 or 100 clients
<Joan Huq> currently customer base is 10,000 world wide
<Steve> I have a client using Docent ... delivering to 35,000 across the UK
<Andrew Chemey> Do you happen to know any stat's on concurrent users?
[Wed Nov 06 19:36:01 CST 2002] Chris Swenson has no profile.
<Mina> when we bought ours, the starter was for 25 seats at $3K; Jump to 100 seats for $10k, I think.
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Chris
<Mark Schupp> the starter edition is 3k I think it is now valid for 10 users. I'll have to check
<Chris Swenson> late but I made it
<Andrew Chemey> Hello Chris
<Steve> sheesh .. even I beat you Chris :p
<Jeff McGuire> Good starter price for a compliant LMS
<Chris Swenson> early flight tomorrow, had to pack first. What's the topic? LMS?
<Amy Blankenship> Yes
<Andrew Chemey> It was bash-Chris chat - but we finished that early
<Steve> you lost 417 to 0 Chris
<Amy Blankenship> Who needs a boy genius anyway? oops...that just slipped out
<Mark Schupp> Web site still show 25 users for WBT Manager starter edition. There has been talk of changing that (one of our resellers complained that he wasn't being taken seriously because our price was low).
<Chris Swenson> I thought we did that last time. =+)
<Andrew Chemey> Mark - that's a problem
<Amy Blankenship> Wow...People want to get ripped ;-)
<Andrew Chemey> I remember when Pathware shipped with an MS Access database to make it EASY to get up and running
<Mark Schupp> Yeah, pricing is an arcane art in this biz
<Andrew Chemey> It was criticized for not being industrial strength
<Ron McNutt> I've never use the AW CMI functions. Maybe this is common knowledge, but can someone tell me what LMS's I can communicate with 'off the shelf' using the CMI functions?
<Andrew Chemey> Pricing and ease-of-use can kill a great product in this realm
<Steve> Ron anything that is AICC compliant allegedly
[Wed Nov 06 19:39:57 CST 2002] Mina Busch: new AW user about to implement a LMS
<Andrew Chemey> Ron - you can probably use it with any LMS that is AICC-compliant, except SABA
<Andrew Chemey> That's out of the box
<Mark Schupp> the cmi functions do work although it is not always a slam-dunk (for one thing they are not well documented)
<Ron McNutt> gotcha... thanks, AICC stuff
<Andrew Chemey> You can easily use it to work with *any* LMS - if you know the tricks
<Steve> but don't try it with Docent 4 ... make sure it is 5 or 6
<Joan Huq> thanks for heads up
<Andrew Chemey> There are still problems with using the CMI functions to make "compliant" AW content
<Ron McNutt> Andrew.... your publishing the tricks soon in a 'how to'?
<Amy Blankenship> A FAQ is VERY needed on this subject
<Steve> yes please .. gimmi gimmi gimmi
<Andrew Chemey> I'm actually hiring a person to better document the KO's
<Andrew Chemey> But I can see what I can do about publishing a better How To document for AW developers
<Amy Blankenship> Thanks, Andrew
<Andrew Chemey> I think I've probably written most of the stuff and published to AWARE or the macromedia forums
<Mark Schupp> Can anyone tell me if the CMIFinish function in AW does the ExitAU (in 5 you had to call CMIFinishExitAU) I haven't done much AW lately.
<Andrew Chemey> The PWInt in 5.2 has the ExitAU embedded
<Steve> In Aw 6 it does methinks
<Andrew Chemey> in CMIFinish()
<Jamil Zainasheff> Gotta run. Send me the log. Thanks.
<Amy Blankenship> Will do
<Steve> See ya Jamil
<Andrew Chemey> However, somewhere between 5.0, 5.1 and 5.2 it required the function to be called in "TRUSTING" mode
<Andrew Chemey> AW 6 and 6.5 allow you to call CMIFinish and have it call the ExitAU command
<Mark Schupp> CMIFinishExitAU was added in 5.2. there was some problem with trusted mode if I recall because it was added at the last minute
[Wed Nov 06 19:45:02 CST 2002] Andrew Chemey: LMS guy
<Andrew Chemey> AW 6.5 also allows you to use SCORM tracking without running in TRUSTING mode
<Andrew Chemey> An example of where CMI functions cause a problem is with CMIGetScore and CMISetScore
<Andrew Chemey> When a user first launches a course - the score is NULL (not 0)
<Andrew Chemey> However, if you call the CMIGetScore function - it returns a 0
<Steve> this is still true in 6.5?
<Andrew Chemey> similarly, calling CMISetScore and passing a NULL value is automatically converted to a 0
<Andrew Chemey> Yes - no changes in AW 6.5
<Steve> oops
<Andrew Chemey> Don't expect the same behavior in future versions
<Steve> Would I? :D
<Chris Swenson> Andrew how would you get around this with AW? Since it doesn't have a "null" type?
<Andrew Chemey> Hopefully that simple thing can get fixed
<Andrew Chemey> Use CMISetCustomField
<Andrew Chemey> OR
<Andrew Chemey> If you are using AICC-HACP, you can create the URL string yourself
<Andrew Chemey> OR
<Andrew Chemey> You can use the KO's:)
<Steve> OR ... go crazy :p
<Chris Swenson> Gotcha.
<Ron McNutt> Creating your own LMS and meeting AICC standards - can anyone comment (I've not read the standards) - easy/medium/monstrous?
<Steve> Has anyone got any burning questions?
<Steve> worse than you might think
<Mark Schupp> If you want an example of using HACP without CMI calls go to the AICC site and get their sample lesson.
<Steve> I've heard a few fold say "we could do that ourselves" ... then when they try they back out of it
<Andrew Chemey> I wouldn't recommend creating your own LMS
<Mina Busch> OK, newbie here. I don't think I've heard of HACP...please explain. Thanks.
<Andrew Chemey> There are three AICC standards
<Ron McNutt> Why didn't you grab me and shake me a couple of years ago? Its already done. Never again.
<Mark Schupp> HTTP AICC Communication Protocol
<Steve> my arms are not that long Ron
<Mina Busch> Thanks
<Andrew Chemey> AICC LAN
<Mark Schupp> HACP is what the CMI calls turn into
<Andrew Chemey> AICC-HACP (which Mark defined) is used for web-based communication, old style
<Andrew Chemey> and AICC JavaScript API which mimics the SCORM metaphor
<Amy Blankenship> Mina...check out my April 2002 Week 3 Tip of the Week archive
<Amy Blankenship> on the articles page
<Andrew Chemey> AICC LAN uses file-based communication
<Ron McNutt> Can anyone comment on what type of customer demands AICC compliance? We sell into the industrial world and no one has ever mentioned it.
<Amy Blankenship> my impression is it is mainly government/military and tech savvy corporate
<Steve> Large corporates here in the UK
<Andrew Chemey> A lot of different customers are using it
<Mark Schupp> Customers want AICC compliance if they expect to get content from various sources
<Chris Swenson> Ron, Anybody who uses courseware from many different vendors and want to track it all in one place
<Andrew Chemey> Even old organizations (That aren't savvy), like Phillips66
<Ron McNutt> gotcha, thanks
<Mark Schupp> They want the content to be tracked by one management system
<Andrew Chemey> A lot of companies are getting into LMS because of OSHA-required training
<Mina Busch> I'm in the insurance industry. Maybe we don't need it, but from what I read, it sounds like the way to go to avoid being burned having a product that locks you to a single vendor. That was our driver.
<Steve> I have delivered to three ... an international insurance company, a nuclear power generator and a national hardware store
<Jeff McGuire> Most clients doing their own courses haven't requested it
<Andrew Chemey> It's easier to maintain database-tracking than storing and keeping a paper trail
<Chris Swenson> we've been doing SCORM based stuff for the government
<Joan Huq> I want to read more about SCORM and HACP and then come back someday thank you for the chat
<Andrew Chemey> Just a quick plug...
<Steve> see Ya Joan
<Andrew Chemey> Check out www.learningconsulting.com for the LMS KO's
<Amy Blankenship> have a good one, Joan
<Andrew Chemey> Also MediaShoppe.com and IELearning.com for LMS
<Joan Huq> ok thanks
<Chris Swenson> Yeah of course you show me those AFTER I wrote my own stuff. where were ya 4 months ago. ;-)
<Andrew lucking> I'd love to hear some more comments re creating an LMS. That actually something we're seriously considering. (For reasons I won't get into)
<Andrew Chemey> They were there 4 months ago (Joe hid them from you)
<Mark Schupp> writing your own stuff builds character (just like pain)
<Steve> what sort of things are you interested in hearing about Andrew?
<Chris Swenson> Ok
<Andrew Chemey> You can do anything you want, when you build your own:)
<Chris Swenson> I should look around more I guess before I start something.
<Amy Blankenship> Too bad Greg Boudreaux isn't here. I have a vague memory they have a home grown LMS
<Andrew Chemey> You wouldn't have used them anyway (you like to do it the hard way)
<Amy Blankenship> I've created a basic pass/fail LMS
<Steve> yes .. with an Access database
<Andrew lucking> Why, the recommendation against?
<Andrew Chemey> I just talked to Greg
<Andrew Chemey> Yep - they were using a well-know LMS
<Amy Blankenship> He usually comes
<Chris Swenson> If/When ADL gets around to having a SOAP based interface I "might" would consider it.
<Andrew Chemey> But just released their own Java-based LMS system
<Chris Swenson> We are going to need a home grown one at some point
<Andrew Chemey> You start to run into issues that are hard to get out of (like scalability)
<Amy Blankenship> Chris is brill, though
<Amy Blankenship> he'll grow scales on his skin if needed
<Andrew Chemey> When you start to develop, you'll use your own system and test and think it works OK
<Steve> LOL
<Steve> you are a sick woman Amy
<Mark Schupp> with a home-grown one you get what you want, but if you want too much it gets expensive real fast.
<Mina Busch> I gotta scoot too. Thank you all. This has been very helpful and informative.
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one
<Andrew Chemey> If you only want to track completion and usage - that's OK
<Chris Swenson> bye
<Steve> See Ya Mina
<Andrew lucking> Good point Mark. I have a feeling that my idea and our ISD group's idea of what they need are different
<Chris Swenson> yeah I think it would have to be done in phases unless you've got lot's of money and time.
<Jeff McGuire> Has any seen many requests for having an e-commerce component for an LMS?
<Andrew Chemey> But that's probably what most people say, when you talk about what kind of tracking they want to do
<Ron McNutt> Jeff or Andrew, anyone got anything for data driven AW apps, or are these systems that track the basics of student progress etc.?
<Amy Blankenship> Andrew (l) seriously, you should look at myCMI at the mediashoppe
<Steve> Jeff .... you mean to buy the courses you view?
<Mark Schupp> e-commerce comes up about every other potential client
<Jeff McGuire> Yeah -- purchase courses and then view in the LMS
<Ron McNutt> e-commerce component - we put one in, then took it out. Our companies don't want to pay that way. big waste of $$, not to knock it, but not our market.
<Chris Swenson> I know that is part of the metadata that is stored, but I've not run into it.
<Andrew Chemey> What do you mean data-driven?
<Steve> Yes. I worked for a company supplying knowledge management company .. they planned to sell modules online
<Chris Swenson> most of the LMS I've used have been inside of an organization...no need for e-commerce there.
<Steve> Docent has built-in features for purchasing
<Andrew Chemey> Do you mean the LMS can control what courses the user is enrolled in-based on past performance?
<Chris Swenson> but public systems I could see the need for it
<Steve> Yes
<Steve> That is a basic need Andrew
<Ron McNutt> data driven... I mean all text, gx, etc. comes from server, small AW template delivers it
<Mark Schupp> We have a number of clients who well training through a storefront site
<Jeff McGuire> Ron --like a content management system?
<Andrew Chemey> I know folks that are using a data-driven AW engine.
<Andrew Chemey> The same AW engine is used to launch content that is pretty simple page-turning stuff that is contained in a text/XML-based file
<Chris Swenson> Yeah I've built many content delivery systems. nothing "out of the box though"
<Andrew lucking> Amy, I've been following its progress... Roll your own would work for us cause we could then distribute it w/ our courseware
<Ron McNutt> Yes Jeff, I've not looked at yours (too late!) but wish I'd known of it
<Steve> I built a data-driven engine that was delivered through Lotus LearningSpace and Blackboard a couple of years ago
<Andrew Chemey> Those systems are pretty difficult to create up-front, though.
<Jeff McGuire> Thanks though Ron :)
<Chris Swenson> Yeah but once they are done....You can start going home at 5:00 again.
<Chris Swenson> it's weird seeing the sun
<Steve> the what?
<Amy Blankenship> When I was first starting out, I tried to find out if integrity's solution would do the data driving. Mark set me straight on that one ;-)
<Chris Swenson> big glowing orb in the sky...I've only seen it once or twice.
<Andrew Chemey> The client that I know is having users convert files to SWF and import into AW with text/voice to describe the SWF slide
<Amy Blankenship> Chris: at 5 am, I'm not even at work yet
<Chris Swenson> Once the engine is done you give it some lacky to enter content.
<Chris Swenson> 5 am and I'm going to bed. I was speaking of 5 PM
<Amy Blankenship> :D
<Steve> sometimes I get to bed before 5am :-D
<Steve> Chris the conventional technical term is Monkey
<Jeff McGuire> Wait till kids -- you can go to bed then and wake up at 7am
<Vahe Kassardjian> Bye everyone. It was nice chatting with you.
<Andrew Chemey> Take care Vahe
<Ron McNutt> Frankly I wouldn't mind if you guys developing stuff were a bit more aggressive in letting us know about it. Sometimes you have to kick on the door a bit before it gets opened :- )
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one, Vahe
<Steve> se ya Vahe
<Jeff McGuire> Bye Vahe
<Andrew lucking> see ya Vahe!
<Steve> LOL .. Ron you are such a cynic
<Chris Swenson> Assume somebody somewhere has done it.
<Chris Swenson> ask and dig around.
<Amy Blankenship> Ron: you should subscribe to my mailing list...I'm always pointing out great products
<Andrew Chemey> What mailing list?
<Steve> I am trying to keep my Blog up to date with cool stuff too
<Amy Blankenship> Andrew: you can subscribe on the FAQ page
<Andrew Chemey> Ron - what are you trying to accomplish now (and what do you want to do in the future)
<Ron McNutt> Amy I'm getting bombarded with ads here, every few minutes, is that part of the chat site? OK I'll look at your mailing list...
<Chris Swenson> Authorware.com now takes user submissions.
<Amy Blankenship> Unfortunately, yes
<Amy Blankenship> the price I pay for getting it for free
<Chris Swenson> I'm hoping to move all of my stuff over to it during Christmas break
<Steve> Hey I figured out how I have that garbage killed
<Steve> in IE advanced properties ... disable Meta Refresh
<Amy Blankenship> I have found if you set up your browser to prompt for cookies, then don't respond to the first cookie, the ads don't pop up
<Andrew lucking> hey, I've up $200 at some casino - ads aren't all bad!
<Jeff McGuire> I asked on an earlier chat if there's a need for a PHP LMS. We have one but don't have the resources to support it. Thought about making it Open Source
<Amy Blankenship> I will be revamping this to be all AW ASAP
<Ron McNutt> Accomplish - finishing the LMS, very close, then recover some money. Not doing data driven stuff now, won't for at least a year, may use Flash for that. Trying to learn Flash, DW, etc. plus guitar.
<Steve> guitar?
<Chris Swenson> there's one more
<Steve> that fits ion nicely
<Steve> in
<Jeff McGuire> Do a course on learning guitar
<Andrew Chemey> Is your LMS using the "standards" or your own proprietary communication mechanism?
<Jeff McGuire> in Flash and learn both
<Chris Swenson> I'm convinced that there are many guitar players in the Authorware community
<Steve> a guitar course has already been done
<Andrew Chemey> Robert Milton took a year off to play guitar
<Jeff McGuire> steal my Thunder!
<Andrew Chemey> Maybe he has an AW course on it
<Amy Blankenship> Will Findlay, I think
<Steve> Maybe Robert did it .. I have it somewhere
<Steve> No I think he was more into keyboard stuff
<Ron McNutt> Andrew: no standards, to our own specs
<Chris Swenson> Are you guys seeing more AICC or SCORM requests?
<Andrew Chemey> What type of content are you launching? What kind of tracking are you doing? How many users are you rolling out to?
<Andrew Chemey> Chris - I'm seeing more SCORM than AICC
<Andrew Chemey> Now, anyway
<Chris Swenson> Me too...just checking
<Jeff McGuire> Most potential client ask for both AICC and SCORM for myCMI
<Chris Swenson> with the AICC and SCORM api being so close (moving to 100% compatible I believe) do you think it will continue?
<Andrew Chemey> A lot are still asking for both -but only *care* about SCORM
<Steve> Carol Fallon thinks the trend is towards a unified JavaScript API if I remember right
<Chris Swenson> I wonder if that will be the case now that SOAP is being investigated.
<Amy B> I think the HACP is too automagical to understand (for most people)
<Chris Swenson> I'm much more interested in that
<Mark Schupp> don't count on it too much. there is a lot of infighting going on in the standards group
<Amy B> Chris...we'll have to keep our AW apps clean
<Chris Swenson> Agreed. Everything in easy to switch out ScriptFunctions
<Andrew Chemey> Script functions is where my KO's are going towards
<Mark Schupp> Surprised she made it to TAAC at all . The book was a nightmare, hardly saw her in the office all summer.
<Chris Swenson> Andrew. I think a lot of things need to move that way. They are wonderfully easy to use
<Steve> Script functions is where all my stuff will go as soon as I can use AW 6.5 for work!
<Andrew Chemey> Mark - who is the co-author (she was locked in her room)
<Mark Schupp> Sharon Brown, She does content for us and writes our user manuals
<Amy Blankenship> I have to make an important phone call now
<Amy Blankenship> I will rejoin the chat ASAP
<Steve> OK
<Ron McNutt> Thanks Amy and friends... learned a few things... signing off. TTUL
<Andrew Chemey> When is the book being made available? I think I might have missed that part. Isn't it in November?
<Steve> See ya Ron
<Jeff McGuire> Bye Ron
<Chris Swenson> bye Ron
<Andrew Chemey> By Ron - hope to talk to you more
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one Ron
<Steve Howard> Sounds right Andrew .. maybe December
<Mark Schupp> the publishing schedule was for November but I don't know if it will make it
<Steve Howard> I thought it was about finished at TAAC?
<Mark Schupp> The content was finished but the layout and pagination had to go back and forth
<Steve Howard> oh - the boring bits :p
<Andrew Chemey> As long as you don't let Carol do the edits:)
<Mark Schupp> The code examples didn't get formatted right , etc
<Steve Howard> OL
<Steve Howard> LOL
<Steve Howard> Sounds like a fairly typical "oops" moment
<Mark Schupp> Yeah, in retrospect Sharon thinks it would have been better to do the prepress here and give the pub a PDF
<Steve Howard> At least you have the control then
<Andrew Chemey> I think PDF is a better format, because you don't have "printer" issues with different layouts that are supported
<Steve Howard> Hey Mark I know you by name, but somehow didn't realize you worked with Carol ... have you been there for long?
<Mark Schupp> They thought that having the pub do the PDF mean *less* work for them
<Mark Schupp> About 4 years
<Steve Howard> Oops ... I should pay more attention ;-)
[Thu Nov 07 02:11:57 GMT+00:00 2002] Andrew Chemey has no profile.
<Mark Schupp> That's OK, I don't do much on the content side any more WBT Manager is more than a full-time job
<Steve Howard> Seems like it is a growing market for you guys
[Thu Nov 07 02:13:41 GMT+00:00 2002] that Amy girl: yeah her
<Steve Howard> her? Cool :D
<Steve> her? Cool :D
<Andrew Chemey> Hey folks - I'm getting kicked out of here. I'll talk to y'all later
<Jeff McGuire> Bye Andrew
<Andrew lucking> thanks for the input Andrew! Some good stuff
<Amy Blankenship> OK. Thanks for coming by
<Mark Schupp> Some of the hype is going away and clients seem to know more about what they need. I don't think it will ever be as big as the analysts predicted a year or 2 ago
<Amy Blankenship> learned a lot!!!
<Andrew Chemey> Jeff - we'll have to catch up later
<Jeff McGuire> sounds good.
<Amy Blankenship> Looks like I've come in just in time to hear the goodbyes
<Jeff McGuire> Yeah, what were they saying 5-10 billion dollar industry?
<Steve> I think the industry is growing apace .. but so does everyone else. there are a LOT of companies pushing LMSs and LCMSs in the UK
<Steve> pretty soon they are all going to start consolidating, amalgamating and withering
<Amy Blankenship> sounds skeery
<Steve> :D
<Jeff McGuire> Yeah, the market does seem crowded
<Steve> well it means some strong ones will survive. That's where Mark will see the market come back to him I think
<Mark Schupp> One hopes
<Steve> you guys have an enviable reputation
<Steve> you always get mentioned next to Docent and the others
<Mark Schupp> Glad to hear it. Most of our sales are word of mouth.
<Steve> makes sense
<Steve> they are the soundest sales too .. you don't have to invest a fortune to get hem, coz they are half-way sold when you walk in the door
<Amy Blankenship> You don't see vendors of other LMS's going out of their way to answer questions on the public forums
<Steve> none
<Mark Schupp> We tried marketing a couple of times but got no discernable result from what we could afford (actually couldn't afford it)
<Jeff McGuire> What's the scoop on Training Server -- we have client that currently using it.
<Amy Blankenship> If that's what you do for free, well...what would you do when you get paid?
<Steve> Never heard of it Jeff
<Mark Schupp> Gotta show off somewhere
<Jeff McGuire> I've only heard it once or twice. Oh well.
<Steve> Mark the only negative I ever hear is questions like "but it's so cheap, what are they missing" ...
<Steve> and they are easy to answer :-)
<Mark Schupp> I think we are going to raise the price because of that
<Steve> Yeah? Ain't the world funny
<Chris Swenson> Sad isn't it.
<Amy Blankenship> I guess I should let my boss know ;-)
<Amy Blankenship> We've been dithering about buying for months now
<Steve> yes ... maybe you should have two price scales :-) One for the wise, and another for the ones who think expensive is good ;-)
<Jeff McGuire> Good luck with that, Amy ;-)
<Chris Swenson> tell them to keep adding zeros until they feel better
<Steve> LOL :D
<Mark Schupp> May be already changed I avoid the pricing and marketing when I can
<Steve> and then you can take the zeros back off before you get to the office b;-)
<Steve> Good plan Mark
<Mark Schupp> Well, as good as this is for my ego, I have to hit the freeway. Bye all
<Steve> LOL ... have fun. See ya
<Amy Blankenship> Have a good one, Mark
<Amy Blankenship> thanks for stopping by
<Andrew lucking> Thanks for your input too Mark!
<Jeff McGuire> Bye Mark
<Jeff McGuire> Thanks!
<Andrew lucking> This has been good Amy. I'm actually pumped about LMS's!
<Steve> You are sick Andrew :-)
<Amy Blankenship> I'm glad this chat helped
<Amy Blankenship> specially since I contributed 0 expertise
<Jeff McGuire> OT: what's a good average time for a PostURL to complete?
<Steve> under 2 secs?
<Amy Blankenship> I can't say...I usually use readurl
<Jeff McGuire> that fast?
<Amy Blankenship> and that's local>local, so ymmv
<Steve> like maybe 0.5 is what I experienced
<Steve> on intranet, sure
<Amy Blankenship> It really depends on what the ASP page is doing
<Chris Swenson> Jeff it's going to depend on server, connection and the complexity of the script
<Jeff McGuire> gotta a slow one - ~ 15 secs.
<Steve> yup
<Steve> :O
<Andrew lucking> you passing war and peace to the server Jeff?
<Jeff McGuire> Simple ASP so should take that long
<Chris Swenson> What's it doing
<Amy Blankenship> Jeff...make sure the sever is "awake"
<Amy Blankenship> lots of times you see that slow first hit after a reboot
<Chris Swenson> how fast is the connection?
<Steve> is it running NT 3?
<Chris Swenson> yuck
<Amy Blankenship> also, make sure you are NOT using DW/UD at all in writing the script
<Jeff McGuire> Update record with score and name
<Jeff McGuire> that's it
<Jeff McGuire> Win2000 server
<Chris Swenson> How many users.
<Chris Swenson> And it might be access.
<Chris Swenson> look at something faster
<Jeff McGuire> Thanks
<Jeff McGuire> That could be it -- Access
<Chris Swenson> Access is a dog
<Chris Swenson> fine for 10 or less users
<Steve> I thought that was Fido?
<Chris Swenson> after that MySQL or SQLServer might do ya better
<Jeff McGuire> Will try with MySQL.
<Amy Blankenship> And also be aware that DW/UD adds an extra hit to the server with the stuff that makes all that drag n drop work
<Jeff McGuire> Don't think it's DW/UD for this page
<Chris Swenson> or come out here for a few days...I'll show you how to write CGI apps in Delphi...serious speed increase
<Jeff McGuire> We need to do that or Dan. He mentioned wanted to do SOAP with you.
<Chris Swenson> yeah we've been talking about that.
<Amy Blankenship> hey, we don't want to hear about your SOAP habit
<Amy Blankenship> ;-)
<Jeff McGuire> It's clean
<Steve> ehem
<Chris Swenson> take the laptops back to that bar... yeah you guys should come back out. ;-)
<Jeff McGuire> :-)
<Steve> Hey did I tell you guys about the wireless LAN they have at the University here?
<Steve> it goes far enough to be able to take the laptop to the bar ... :+)
<Chris Swenson> wireless is great. I've got it in my apartment!
<Jeff McGuire> How fast?
<Steve> 11 Mbits
<Jeff McGuire> Fast 'nough
<Chris Swenson> unless your moving gigs of data across a local network you'll never notice the difference
<Andrew lucking> Well thanks all. over & out
<Steve> well mostly I use it for surfing .. research stuff. Downloads are cool :D
<Chris Swenson> bye Andrew
<Jeff McGuire> Bye Andrew
<Steve> See Ya Andrew
<Amy Blankenship> OK, guys, I think I need to scram
<Amy Blankenship> Y'all kids have fun
<Jeff McGuire> Thanks for the invite
<Amy Blankenship> with your soap and whatever
<Chris Swenson> yeah about that time. I've got a flight at 6:00 Am. need to go to bed.
<Amy Blankenship> Thanks for coming round
<Steve> I should scoot too .. I do have a bed somewhere around here ...
<Amy Blankenship> Night all