<Andrew Chemey> I definitely recommend the KO's
[Tue Dec 03 18:24:07 CST 2002] Chuck Lewis: Just gonna hang out for a while.
<Chuck Lewis> hello Amy
<Amy Blankenship> Hey Chuck
<Amy Blankenship> How's life?
<Chuck Lewis> busy, busy, busy
<Chuck Lewis> saw you are looking for work
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, trying to make a go of contracting
<Amy Blankenship> What have you been so busy at?
<Chuck Lewis> lots of WBT's
<Chuck Lewis> working right now on a Subaru course
<Amy Blankenship> That sounds like fun
<Amy Blankenship> Teaching sales, mechanics, what?
<Chuck Lewis> mechanics
<Chuck Lewis> Basic Electrical
<Chuck Lewis> lots of flash and interactivity
<Chuck Lewis> beta review on the 11th
<Amy Blankenship> Sounds like fun
<Amy Blankenship> The last thing I did at Job Corps was a game designed to teach Security procedures
<Chuck Lewis> plus my code is being used by four other developers so I need to support them as well... pulled in many directions
<Chuck Lewis> security for what?
<Chuck Lewis> like a security guard?
[Tue Dec 03 18:28:49 CST 2002] Marc has no profile.
<Amy Blankenship> Network security, locking doors, that sort of thing
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Marc
<Chuck Lewis> anyway, curious about DB... have not really got into them yet... have been using INI files to feed my courses
<Chuck Lewis> ahhh
[Tue Dec 03 18:29:40 CST 2002] Steve: flippin tired
<Amy Blankenship> Which Marc we got
<Chuck Lewis> hey mar & Steve
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, tired Steve
[Tue Dec 03 18:29:56 CST 2002] Chris Swenson has no profile.
<Chuck Lewis> marc
<Steve> :p
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Chris
[Tue Dec 03 18:30:13 CST 2002] Dave has no profile.
<Chris Swenson> Had some trouble getting in but I made it
<Amy Blankenship> Chuck, to be honest I still mostly use ini files, too, because we often have to deliver CD's
<Amy Blankenship> Hi Dave
<Amy Blankenship> Sorry, Chris
<Dave> Hello
<Chuck Lewis> I like ini
<Chris Swenson> it's ok...slight panic on my end
[Tue Dec 03 18:31:01 CST 2002] Dawn Chamberlin: Applications Programmer for Oce Printing Systems
<Chuck Lewis> they work fine on CD and web
<Chris Swenson> =+)
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, Chuck, but you have to do different things to do from CD or web
[Tue Dec 03 18:31:32 CST 2002] Steve Zografakis: Sales and Customer Service - Integration New Media, Inc.
<Amy Blankenship> With INI files, you just make sure they are in the right place
[Tue Dec 03 18:31:45 CST 2002] vahe kassardjian: Integration New Media
<Chuck Lewis> not much different
<Amy Blankenship> Hi, Steve, Vahe
<Amy Blankenship> Glad you could come
<Steve Zografakis> Hello Amy!
<Chuck Lewis> I download the INI to the user and all goes from there
<Chris Swenson> ini files work great for something
<Chuck Lewis> I know I should move to DB and XML, but they have given me no problems
<Chris Swenson> not much use though when needing to manage large amount of data though...
<Chuck Lewis> agreed
<Chris Swenson> it really depends on the amount of data and the complexity
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, that is true
[Tue Dec 03 18:33:37 CST 2002] vahe kassardjian: Integration New Media
<Chuck Lewis> I have tech writers and designers build the INI for me so I can sit back and build the fun stuff
<Amy Blankenship> But we're really here to talk about databases, so we can leave that behind
<Chuck Lewis> no prob
<vahe kassardjian> Hello everyone. I am here to talk about databases.
<Steve Zografakis> Me too!
<Amy Blankenship> The big issue I have with databases is that it takes some kind of tool to get stuff INTO the database
[Tue Dec 03 18:34:53 CST 2002] guy has no profile.
<Steve> it's called a Monkey with a little luck :p
<Chris Swenson> I think it's a valid issue. part of using a database or any data source is knowing which source to use. Local db, server based, text based, ini, xml etc.
<vahe kassardjian> Sure: it's either a data conversion tool, or an editing tool.
[Tue Dec 03 18:35:54 CST 2002] Jeff August: jaugust@augusttraining.com
<Amy Blankenship> hi, Jeff
<vahe kassardjian> Amy's point is probably that data editing tools are not friendly enough and do not favor productivity?
<Amy Blankenship> Welcome
<Jeff August> Hello
<Amy Blankenship> Basically...you have to create a tool to get that stuff in there
<Amy Blankenship> and then you have to train the SME's to use it
<Chris Swenson> ahh
<Chris Swenson> I see what you are saying now.
<Chris Swenson> yes often it's a needed step, building a front end for editing.
<Chris Swenson> Or a converter.
<Amy Blankenship> If you use a converter, you have to make sure everything is formatted "just so"
<Chris Swenson> I'm very interested in Xdocs from microsoft.
<Steve> what?
<vahe kassardjian> I guess you wish you had a generic editing tool that could be used for any project, by any SME, right Amy?
<Amy Blankenship> what's that?
<Chris Swenson> it should "help" when working with data sources supported by ADO
<Amy Blankenship> Right...but usually the types of data you want to collect vary by project
<Chris Swenson> it's part of the next office release. It's a form builder that hooks in data sources.
<Chris Swenson> xml, word docs, databases, excel files, etc.
<Amy Blankenship> That sounds cool...but I suspect it's not going to be "there yet"
<Chris Swenson> I've had a look at it....it might be. =+)
<Chris Swenson> but it's not here now and it's unproven so I see the point
[Tue Dec 03 18:40:08 CST 2002] Fran Peruzzi: New to web based database driven delivery
<Amy Blankenship> Yes, plus I suspect it will be a lot like KO's...sounds great in theory, but sucks for more than the basics
<vahe kassardjian> Adobe is boosting Acroabt to compete against XDocs as well. They are coming up with an ADBC (Adobe Database Connectivity) standard.
<Amy Blankenship> Hey Fran
<Fran Peruzzi> HI, did I miss much?
<Chris Swenson> vahe, yep that's looking cool too
<Chris Swenson> Amy, you will have complete control over the form
<Amy Blankenship> Which comes back to...you have to create a tool to get the data in
<Amy Blankenship> Fran: No, we are just talking about how data gets into the database
<Chris Swenson> Yeah but it will be easier then building one in VB, Delphi or Access
<Chris Swenson> or Authorware I guess
<Amy Blankenship> Maybe
<vahe kassardjian> Sure, but the tools would be easier to create with Acrobat or XDocs
<Chris Swenson> =+)
[Tue Dec 03 18:42:23 CST 2002] Jamil Zainasheff: The "Jackie Chan" of Authorware
<vahe kassardjian> Another alternative is still to feed data to the system with an XML editor, but such tools are definitely "not there yet"
<Steve> Hey Jackie
<Chris Swenson> No they are not
[Tue Dec 03 18:42:43 CST 2002] Marc Trowbridge has no profile.
<Amy Blankenship> Hi Jamil
<Amy Blankenship> Hi Marc
<Marc Trowbridge> Hello
<Chris Swenson> dead silence. =+)
<Amy Blankenship> Everyone is intimidated by Jackie
[Tue Dec 03 18:45:43 CST 2002] Disconnected. Close Bravenet Chat and restart.
<Chat resumed at mojomole.com>
Chris : hello testing
Chris : hey
Amy B : Hello
Chris : ok this seems to work
Chris : work
Chris : ya want to move people?
Amy B : It would make more sense if you put the new comments at the bottom
Amy B : but still cool
Chris : not my module =+)
Chris : but yeah
Amy B : Is this a Flash comm server chat?
Chris : nope flash and php
Chris : I'm going to tear it apart and see if can make some changes but it works
Amy B : that would explain the slight delay
Amy B : Is there a way to save the text out of this thing?
Chris : yes I've got a log
Amy B : great!
Amy B : You da man
Amy B : It remains to be seen if people will find their way in
Amy B : Hey, will the log be upside down too?
Amy B : Hi, Guy...glad you could find us
Chris : umm I don't think it is but it might be upside down =+)
Chris : Hi guy
Guy Lievens : sorry about the mail I already have sent Amy
Amy B : I mean will the new comments be at the bottom rather than the top
Amy B : Why, was it rude, crude, and socially unacceptable?
Chris : yeah if it is I'll reverse it.
Chris : no that was mine. =+) just kid'n
Chris : Hi Franc
Amy B : Cool, Chris. You and Missy Elliot
Amy B : Hi, Franc
Franc Avila : Hi there. I was losing hope
Chris : quick fix...not as nice as Amy's but it works for now
Amy B : It's loads cuter
Amy B : and it actually works
Guy Lievens : :-)
Chris : The real issue. =+)
Amy B : Hi, Glenn
Guy Lievens : can we get back to db
Chris : Hi Glenn
Amy B : Hope the rest of the world can find this
Chris : Yes lets
Fran Peruzzi : Hi
Glenn Bull : Hi All. I actually just managed to get into Amy's Chat when I got the email.
Amy B : Actually, Guy, this chat is PHP and Flash
Amy B : Wow, it is back up?
Amy B : Will have to try to poke my head in
Chris : so who is working on db projects now? have you ran into issues?
Glenn Bull : Hey Chris - I love the moles hat - very festive!
Guy Lievens : I am
Chris : Thanks =+)
Fran Peruzzi : We've started our first web delivered db project
Chris : What database are you using?
Guy Lievens : seems this is php and flash
Chris : either of you =+)
Guy Lievens : got back in at Amy's chat to
Guy Lievens : two at the same time
Fran Peruzzi : right now we're running access, but we're thinking of moving to sql server
Guy Lievens : running access too
Chris : Good choice for server side.
Guy Lievens : can we have many multiple users ?
Chris : access has that upsize wizard that makes moving to SQL server a breeze
Guy Lievens : it thought this was a problem
Fran Peruzzi : nice, I was wondering if it would be hard
Chris : Access is meant for single users or limited multi user.
Chris : I try to avoid it for server based stuff
Chris : SQL Server or MySQL is a much better choice
Guy Lievens : would it be hard to convert to oracle
Chris : I've not done much with oracle since the 8i days and even then it wasn't much
Chris : I like SQL server cause it feels like access...I like mySQL cause it's powerful and cheap. =+)
Amy B : Guy, it can be...but most servers won't give you enough connections to make it past the db limit
Chris : nothing wrong with Oracle though
Amy B : plus, if you open and close really quickly, you should be ok
Amy B : Chris: but access does have the advantage that you can put it on a CD
Chris : the big thing about access with multiple users is the concurrent access
Chris : if there a lot of open connections it can be a head ache
Chris : best to test
Chris : Yes access goes nicely on a cd.
Guy Lievens : would a quick open / close help ?
Chris : Guy yes
Fran Peruzzi : we've had multi-user issues with access.
Guy Lievens : mysql can run on LAN to or does it have to be int(e)r(a)net ?
Chris : it's fine for maybe 10 concurrent users...it depends on the amount of data being passed back and forth
Chris : you might be able to get away with a 1000 or more...but why risk it?
Glenn Bull : How about INM's V12 - does multiple connections and is cross platform.
Chris : Guy, mySQL requires a machine with TCP/IP
Fran Peruzzi : it's not usually a problem, except when many people start the cbt at the same time. We try to keep quick open/close.
Glenn Bull : V12 requires only the database file and an Xtra.
Chris : I run it locally but I do it as a server...I just log into localhost (127.0.0.1)
Guy Lievens : what do you mean : why risk it ?
Chris : There are better options out there for multiple users
Chris : then access provides
Guy Lievens : if I have 16,000 users that COULD be consulting at the same time
Guy Lievens : any solutions ?
Chris : SQLserver, Oracle, MySql all work nicely with that many users
vahe kassardjian : Hurray. I am back. IT IS ALIVE!
Guy Lievens : and LAN to
Glenn Bull : Hi Vahe, Steve & Jeff!
Chris : If the LAN is TCP/IP based or at least uses TCP/IP as one of the protocols then yes it will work
vahe kassardjian : Hello Glenn. I am glad you were able to join.
Steve Zografakis : Hi Glenn!
Glenn Bull : & Jeff!
Guy Lievens : my messages disappear !!!
Guy Lievens : can't read anything
Glenn Bull : So are mine
Chris : it cleared it's self
Fran Peruzzi : yup
vahe kassardjian : same here
Steve Zografakis : mine too
Chris : sorry...it's not the best solution
Franc Avila : same here
vahe kassardjian : I think it's a feature, not a bug
Chris : I'll try and get something better
Steve Zografakis : I hope they're saved somewhere
Glenn Bull : Isn't technology great :o)
Chris : I think so...
Chris : first time using it =+)
Guy Lievens : and OK for the rest Chris !!
Chris : yeah I've got a log
Steve Zografakis : great
Chris : just pulled it it's all there
Fran Peruzzi : so, what kind of roadblocks might I run into modifying a cd product for web delivery as far as db access goes
Chris : How are you connecting to the db now?
Fran Peruzzi : odbc
Guy Lievens : can we use two methods on one db
Amy B : wow...it looks like my window keeps going blank
Guy Lievens : e.g. : mysql and odbc ?
vahe kassardjian : Blank and ship?
Fran Peruzzi : access and odbc right now
Guy Lievens : so am I
Glenn Bull : Haha - nice one Vahe!
Chris : You can do one of two things. either create a ODBC DSN for the MySQL using MyODBC (free)
Chris : or create a series of php/asp/cgi scripts to access the data
Chris : I've got an example on this site that uses one sub routine to access both from a local and a server based database
Amy B : OK, I need to get a real host where I can have a real chat
Steve Zografakis : Scripting the server side? How complex can that become?
Amy B : I know this
Fran Peruzzi : I downloaded your example, Chris. The one asp file works for all queries in the program?
Chris : Steve, as complex or as simple as it needs to be. I've one asp script that I use for all of my data access
Amy B : Hmmm...my comments not showing
Chris : Fran yes
Fran Peruzzi : nice. Even though I don't know asp yet, the one file you had didn't look like TOO much work.
Guy Lievens : will have to look into that later this day
Chris : pretty simple
Chris : it returns a list of property lists that is the record set
Glenn Bull : To be fair Chris - you are unique. I imagine most users wouldn't have the skills or the patience to hook AW up to PHP/ASP/CGI etc??
Steve Zografakis : I guess it wouldn't help if someone did not know much about ASP..I know I don't :(
Chris : True...
Amy B : haha
Chris : That file is there though...freebie...it's a place to start
Amy B : back
Fran Peruzzi : I noticed you had control of how the data was returned too (prop list for yours) how long would it take to learn some basic asp for simple SELECT queries
Guy Lievens : we can learn can't we ?
Chris : If there is a need for a php one (which I'm sure there is) I could build one.
Chris : Fran. You can tear that example apart, but it should work for all select queries.
Amy B : there's a great tutorial on www.webmonkey.com that walks you through connecting a DB to ASP
Chris : I'm passing a stored query to execute but there is no reason that you couldn't pass the actual sql
Steve Zografakis : Hey Chris, I can tell that you are very experienced when it comes to scripting on the server side
Fran Peruzzi : nice...I've also started on that Webmonkey lesson, but as this is my first time on the web I kept thinking, "There must be more to it..."
Chris : Steve, thanks
Amy B : I also have a basic starter ASP example on my site
Fran Peruzzi : Amy, I'll have to check that out
Chris : Amy's script is probably simpler if you are wanting to just learn.
Chris : mines more of a 'hey it works...don't mess with it' kind of thing =+)
Amy B : No, it really is that easy
Steve Zografakis : lol...Chris what do you think of a solution such as GoldenGate?
Amy B : You may have to look up specific SQL expressions
Chris : Steve, cool product.
Fran Peruzzi : We are looking into GG too.
Steve Zografakis : You have tried it?
vahe kassardjian : In my view, ASP/PHP/Python/scripting is a specialty by itself. Although it _can_ be learned, it is definitely a major competency you need to acquire.
Glenn Bull : Are most developers producing online AW/DB systems rather than CD based?
Guy Lievens : isn't GG kind of 'old' ?
Chris : I've done a similar thing with remote executing...not easy but your product makes it simple.
Amy B : I find 4guysfromrolla is good for more advanced concepts
vahe kassardjian : Guy: what do you mean by GG is old?
Chris : for me it was a cost issue...spend the money or spend an hour...but I know I'm not 'average'
Fran Peruzzi : I couldn't really get much on 4guys with my limited experience
Guy Lievens : well the GG I know isn't used any more !
Chris : if it takes longer to set up then the cost justifies then it's a great choice
Steve Zografakis : Well, I find it is simple for those who spend enough time with the front end of their project and really don't want to get into the complexity of working out the back end
Guy Lievens : the Goldengate I mean
Steve Zografakis : true
vahe kassardjian : Are we talking about GoldenGate Database Connector? or some other GG?
Steve Zografakis : Guy: why do you say that?
Guy Lievens : it was a Excel like program
Steve Zografakis : GoldenGate Database Connector
Amy B : I think ultimately we all have to look in that direction Glenn
Chris : The connector is a very cool tool for doing remote database work
Fran Peruzzi : From what I've seen of GoldenGate it seems easy to use
Amy B : the days where we can "just do Authorware" are pretty much passing us by
Steve Zografakis : well, it save a lot of time than to script the back end
Chris : Amy...they are probably gone now. but that's not a bad thing
Steve Zografakis : unless you are a pro in ASP (Chris)
vahe kassardjian : Don't agree with Amy. The point here is to let AW developers focus on content and learner, not technology.
Amy B : Fran...you just go to the search and type in something you are looking for...usually it will turn up a link that points you in the direction of a concept you need to learn
Amy B : then you look it up in a reference manual or MSDN
Chris : That's a great goal but I'm not sure it's reachable....you can hide a lot of the technology but to use it ....you've got to Use it in some fashion
Fran Peruzzi : nice...I usually spend a couple of hours after work doing just that...I'm kind of new so I feel like I have to 'catch up'
Fran Peruzzi : I've used MSDN...seems I need more background knowledge before that will be a really useful tool though
Chris : Fran that's the way to go...spend a bit of time each week on R& D that's the only way to learn
Guy Lievens : have to catch up too you know
Fran Peruzzi : yup.
Guy Lievens : using Authorware 9 years
Steve Zografakis : yea
Chris : that should of been R&D
Guy Lievens : just started with db
Steve Zografakis : Wow
Amy B : Not to those who can "keep up" ;-)
Chris : sorry
Steve Zografakis : Amy: Imagine those who just started...all the options
Guy Lievens : and then you get other methods : sql, asp, php
Guy Lievens : who can keep up all of that
Amy B : Yes, vahe, but the idea is that we have to look away from the CD-ROM only solutions and towards more web centric solutions
Fran Peruzzi : Amy: especially when frequent updating is necessary
Steve Zografakis : Amy : That's true but there are always those who wish to have both. Or switch from one to the other.
Amy B : Chris: yes, anything with any power will need some kind of learning curve
vahe kassardjian : Sure, but we will come to realize that we can't do everything in a project. We will need to collaborate: front-end developers, back-end developers, security experts, etc.
Chris : Fran. I usually install the db to the hard drive and do 'updates' from a server once in a while
Chris : reburning cd's is a hassle for just data changes
Glenn Bull : When I need to develop a DB driven app, I don't want to spend valuable time on connecting things up/testing etc etc. Building DB driven apps needs to be a no-brainer. This is where GG & V12 fit in in my view.
Amy B : Fran: you'll be ahead in no time ;-)
vahe kassardjian : ... and of course, the trend to "buy" existing proven stable solutions will outgrow the "make" solution.
Glenn Bull : (cut-off)...GG & V12 fit in in my view.
Chris : vahe...that's a cost/ control issue though to. I've got serious control issues.
Chris : grr...
Amy B : Fran: You need to look at the sections marked "Reference"
Amy B : those are usually the syntax guides
Fran Peruzzi : I'll check those sections out. The list has been a great tool so far.
vahe kassardjian : For projects that require intricate, complex, customized database access, I suggest that you hire specialists (such as Chris) instead of developing your own expertise.
Amy B : Anyone get the feeling comments aren't necessarily coming in order
Glenn Bull : yes, Vahe and as everyone here knows - Chris is unique!
Fran Peruzzi : right now, it looks like we may be going with GG for this project, which will give time to develop the expertise for later...
Steve Zografakis : Vahe: Yes but this would be great, only thing is that it would be great for one specific project.
Chris : vahe, I agree if db isn't your cup of tea then you should look for easier solutions.
Chris : sorry the chat is kinda screwy... it was a very quick fix.
Glenn Bull : easier solutions - V12 & Goldengate
vahe kassardjian : well, my point is that not every car driver is a mechanic, but most mechanics are car drivers. Database development should be as easy as driving a car. But you will always need a mechanic one day.
Chris : I've not done a lot with V12, do I have access to the data through odbc as well? I like to build editors and such in Delphi.
Steve zografakis : Yes, I would say V12-DBE would be a great quick CD based database solution
Amy B : There is no way around that
Glenn Bull : the ends of my lines keep getting cut off - this could be dangerous
Chris : Sorry. It's not taking some characters
Chris : not my chat app...hope to have something else down the road
vahe kassardjian : I have to leave in a few minutes, but I have a 1M$ question first: what is the biggest challenge you currently experience with databases?
Glenn Bull : While this chat is great - I have found that Amy's is now working properly. Should we switch?
Chris : yeah we can
Guy Lievens : have a great evening you all. it was a pleasure. (got up yesterday at 5:40, now it's 2:45 in the morning-> got to go to bed !!)
Steve zografakis : For me it would be figuring out which one is the most reliable!
Chris : vahe, I'm in good shape. the biggest thing is moving data from one format to another...but there are tools for that.
Chris : bye guy
Glenn Bull : For me it is speed of development.
Steve zografakis : bye vahe
Fran Peruzzi : Having good db design is key for constantly evolving projects
Amy B : Glenn...I don't want to keep moving back and forth
vahe kassardjian : Great feedback. Can I assume that making the project independents of delivery platform is an issue too?
vahe kassardjian : Or can we assume that Web delivery is the unique way to go?
Fran Peruzzi : definitely
Chris : database design is usually the biggest thing. a well thought out design will save you hours down the road
Glenn Bull : yes. the last thing I want to do is use 2 different systems for Mac & PC.
Glenn Bull : and PC
Amy B : Vahe: for me the big challenge is capturing all the data that you need
Fran Peruzzi : the delivery method tends to vary for us. In house things tend to be LAN, but now we are looking at web for wide distribution
vahe kassardjian : Agree with Fran and Chris. Unfortunately, DB design is mostly know-how and experience.
Steve zografakis : Chris: Seriously, the design is key. But what about those who do not have any database knowledge or how to structure it?
Amy B : Vahe...I wouldn't think so, over the web. The database lives on the server
Chris : Steve, books my friend. =+)
vahe kassardjian : Amy: capturing all the data and making sure it is up-to-date, approved, etc. This is what you mean?
Steve zografakis : Yes, my enemies! ;)
Fran Peruzzi : Chris: as far as books go, any suggestions on good places to start?
Chris : had to ask that. =+)
Chris : Not really. Any book that talks about relationships would be a good place to start.
Chris : read up on normalizing data as well
Fran Peruzzi : easier than doing the work myself =)
Fran Peruzzi : well, this has given me a lot to think about, I've got to go, thanks for the chat!
Chris : I had a good teacher so I kinda skipped the design books and went straight to the SQL references
Chris : bye Fran
Amy B : Steve: I would not think Golden Gate would help much with database design
vahe kassardjian : I got to go too. It was nice chatting with you tonight. See you on-line next time.
Steve zografakis : Well, references are best. Sometimes manuals have so much text that it takes you to the point where you are not learning what you want to learn.
Steve zografakis : bye Vahe
Glenn Bull : Amy - true but it makes development pretty fast
Chris : bye vahe
Glenn Bull : Bye Vahe!
Amy B : No, I mean that often you have to create tools to get the data in the database. And that can be time consuming, with error checking, etc.
Chris : just FYI I'm doing a session at EuroTAAC on DB design...nothing else just design
Amy B : Fran: AFAIK, there is no way to get around database design
Chris : nope no way around it.
Amy B : have a good one Fran
Steve zografakis : Hey Chris, will your session be available for those unfortunate that won't be able to attend?
Amy B : have a good one vahe
Chris : Steve...probably sample files and such. I'm not sure it's going to be video taped or not
Amy B : cool
Steve zografakis : I guess after the design stage, the rest falls into place. It would be great to be a pro in designing a database
Chris : Well guys the chat is really dragging now (the app not the conversation) I've got a class to teach in the morning and I've got be up early I think I'm going to bail
Chris : I'll grab the log in just a bit
Glenn Bull : I have to go also. Thanks everyone - till next time!
Chris : bye all
Steve zografakis : Ok Chris, keep in touch I would love to get more info on that session of yours someday